Kaskara Fuller Styles and Some Blade Marks--a third essay for discussion

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2018, 04:11 PM

I just wanted to echo the congratulations, appreciation and respect to Ed for this outstanding work on the conundrums of the kaskara, which actually preempted Reed in JAAS (1987) and held material far more detailed and relevant. Our greatest fortune has been that he shared this with us and opened the doors to the greatest advance in the study of these Sudanese weapons in decades.

His work was greatly augmented by that of Iain, whose tenacious work on the takouba provided brilliant insight into the kaskara as well. I personally will be ever grateful to these two brilliant researchers for what they helped me learn on these fascinating topics.

Ian, I thank you as well for your placing of these works and the links to the many discussions for the benefit of those with continued interest in these topics. If I may, very well done!

Edster · 6th September 2018, 07:32 PM

Jim,

Thank you for your congratulations. I've always considered you my mentor on the kaskara, and I still sit at your knee to absorb your great wisdom and insights.

Highest regards,
Ed

Ian · 7th September 2018, 10:09 AM

Hi Jim,

Good to see you posting again on the kaskara. Thanks for the kind words, but my contribution was purely technical and the content was the work of Ed and our other contributors. These threads are further testimony to the talent among our membership here, and the importance of scholarship to our understanding of these weapons. We tend to think of this site as "small" in comparison to some other knife discussion forums, but this little mouse can "roar" when it has a mind to. High quality contributions, including essays like Ed's, distinguish this site from many others out there. It really is a privilege to participate in some of these efforts.

Best wishes,

Ian.

Kubur · 7th September 2018, 02:22 PM

3. El Kar
Quote:
A single groove running down the blade from the handle to point.
This style presents a fuller with a larger channel than the Suliman type. An informant in 1984 Kassala called it a Khar (channel) Hongoog (straw) for straw channel, “a wider line than Suliman.” The informant said that Ethiopian swords were blank (no lines), but had a mark. A contemporaneous blade smith, Fateh Hallak, made swords with a scooped-out blade called Khar (canal or channel)) for lighter weight and used the Ethiopian style mark. I have not seen one of his blades, but assume they are heavily fullered.

These blades seldom, if ever, have European makers' marks—I know of none—although others contain inscriptions.

In 2011, DaveS presented a superior El Kar fullered sword with possible links to Ali Dinar. It had no maker’s mark, but was highly engraved with Arabic text in the central channel.

Just a small comment about this al-Kar blade and single groove.
It seems that you don't distinguish the imported from the local blades.

To me each group that you describe is based on an import then reproduced locally.

Did you reccord or collect any vocabulary who distinguish the local/copies from the imported ones?

Thanks

Edster · 7th September 2018, 04:10 PM

Kubur,

Good question. I couldn't find a reference to El Kar blades of marked European origin. As in the quote, the Kassala informant said he used Ethiopian styles as a reference. I didn't ask if he thought those blades were native Ethiopian or based on a European or other foreign origin model. Italy was active in Ethiopia for several years during the 19th and 20th Centuries so they could have been an influence. Also, Ethiopia also had a native blade tradition as well. The database seems too small just now to hazard a good educated guess.

A well inscribed El Kar was presented by CharlesS in a 2008 post linked below. A good discussion led by Jim ensued. The blade was not dated or identified, but the sword had a Sennariya cross-guard and the Bega tassel indicative of Eastern Sudan. Also, the inscriptions (images and text) could indicate plus or minus Mahdiya era. I hadn't thought about it before, but the El Kar fuller could have been added to either a native or imported blade as fuller making and surface polishing processes would obliterate any maker's mark regardless of origin.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7668

Best,
Ed

Kubur · 8th September 2018, 08:40 AM

Thank you Ed it's very informative.
About Charles sword I think the blade is local.
To me the most important is not to be local or imported but a blade that was used (and sharpened).

Edster · 10th September 2018, 02:57 PM

The images attached are of the Suliman Makhummas kaskara collected by the 4th Irish Dragoon Guards in 1882 as referenced in the RDGAC text linked above. They were provided recently for use by permission of the York Army Museum who requested notice of images copyright by the Museum.

This before 1882 sword is significant as it is at least a generation before the c.1914 Makhummas the example in Fig. 14 above. Also the quillon is similar to the 1914 example. There appears to be a blade reinforcing piece under the langet.

Special thanks to Aline Staes, Collections Manager, York Army Museum.

Ed

10th September 2018, 02:57 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	1882 Suliman Makhummas The images attached are of the Suliman Makhummas kaskara collected by the 4th Irish Dragoon Guards in 1882 as referenced in the RDGAC text linked above. They were provided recently for use by permission of the York Army Museum who requested notice of images copyright by the Museum. This before 1882 sword is significant as it is at least a generation before the c.1914 Makhummas the example in Fig. 14 above. Also the quillon is similar to the 1914 example. There appears to be a blade reinforcing piece under the langet. Special thanks to Aline Staes, Collections Manager, York Army Museum. Ed Attached Images Last edited by Edster; 10th September 2018 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Delete this post. Another one with attached images to follow.

6th September 2018, 04:11 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	I just wanted to echo the congratulations, appreciation and respect to Ed for this outstanding work on the conundrums of the kaskara, which actually preempted Reed in JAAS (1987) and held material far more detailed and relevant. Our greatest fortune has been that he shared this with us and opened the doors to the greatest advance in the study of these Sudanese weapons in decades. His work was greatly augmented by that of Iain, whose tenacious work on the takouba provided brilliant insight into the kaskara as well. I personally will be ever grateful to these two brilliant researchers for what they helped me learn on these fascinating topics. Ian, I thank you as well for your placing of these works and the links to the many discussions for the benefit of those with continued interest in these topics. If I may, very well done!

6th September 2018, 07:32 PM	#2
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Jim, Thank you for your congratulations. I've always considered you my mentor on the kaskara, and I still sit at your knee to absorb your great wisdom and insights. Highest regards, Ed

7th September 2018, 10:09 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Hi Jim, Good to see you posting again on the kaskara. Thanks for the kind words, but my contribution was purely technical and the content was the work of Ed and our other contributors. These threads are further testimony to the talent among our membership here, and the importance of scholarship to our understanding of these weapons. We tend to think of this site as "small" in comparison to some other knife discussion forums, but this little mouse can "roar" when it has a mind to. High quality contributions, including essays like Ed's, distinguish this site from many others out there. It really is a privilege to participate in some of these efforts. Best wishes, Ian.

7th September 2018, 02:22 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	3. El Kar Quote: A single groove running down the blade from the handle to point. This style presents a fuller with a larger channel than the Suliman type. An informant in 1984 Kassala called it a Khar (channel) Hongoog (straw) for straw channel, “a wider line than Suliman.” The informant said that Ethiopian swords were blank (no lines), but had a mark. A contemporaneous blade smith, Fateh Hallak, made swords with a scooped-out blade called Khar (canal or channel)) for lighter weight and used the Ethiopian style mark. I have not seen one of his blades, but assume they are heavily fullered. These blades seldom, if ever, have European makers' marks—I know of none—although others contain inscriptions. In 2011, DaveS presented a superior El Kar fullered sword with possible links to Ali Dinar. It had no maker’s mark, but was highly engraved with Arabic text in the central channel. Just a small comment about this al-Kar blade and single groove. It seems that you don't distinguish the imported from the local blades. To me each group that you describe is based on an import then reproduced locally. Did you reccord or collect any vocabulary who distinguish the local/copies from the imported ones? Thanks

7th September 2018, 04:10 PM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Kubur, Good question. I couldn't find a reference to El Kar blades of marked European origin. As in the quote, the Kassala informant said he used Ethiopian styles as a reference. I didn't ask if he thought those blades were native Ethiopian or based on a European or other foreign origin model. Italy was active in Ethiopia for several years during the 19th and 20th Centuries so they could have been an influence. Also, Ethiopia also had a native blade tradition as well. The database seems too small just now to hazard a good educated guess. A well inscribed El Kar was presented by CharlesS in a 2008 post linked below. A good discussion led by Jim ensued. The blade was not dated or identified, but the sword had a Sennariya cross-guard and the Bega tassel indicative of Eastern Sudan. Also, the inscriptions (images and text) could indicate plus or minus Mahdiya era. I hadn't thought about it before, but the El Kar fuller could have been added to either a native or imported blade as fuller making and surface polishing processes would obliterate any maker's mark regardless of origin. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7668 Best, Ed

8th September 2018, 08:40 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you Ed it's very informative. About Charles sword I think the blade is local. To me the most important is not to be local or imported but a blade that was used (and sharpened).