The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

Victrix · 25th January 2018, 09:43 PM

Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

fernando · 26th January 2018, 03:16 PM

It would take someone with more knowledge to answer your questions; even the assumption that the (four) dots are not maker's marks but a period fashion symbol ... or both. ´
When i bought my cannons i have made some search and resumed that the four dots were typical marks of 15th century short cannons; something certainly not applicable to those in your sword.
Whether there is a time line linking both, i ignore.
In any case, why don't you show us the whole of your sword ?

Victrix · 26th January 2018, 03:30 PM

Fernando, I presented the sword in a separate thread previously. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I thought I would follow up on the four dots mark in this thread dealing specifically with marks, and see if someone recognized them. Are your [small] cannons from a particular geographic location? Could they be the mark of a foundry producing iron? Perhaps the cannons were cast at this foundry and then marked accordingly?

fernando · 26th January 2018, 06:30 PM

These (three in all) examples are in principle Spanish. They were forged, not cast; those appeared much later. The four dots were surely the mark of the workshop but, as you know, very often early marks represented symbols, magic and so. I remember now who said these were 15th century marks.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...08&postcount=3
I would not associate these dots with the ones in your sword; after all, dots are a symbol easy to occur everywhere and in different periods, as also in more complex setups, like in edged weapons.

.

Victrix · 26th January 2018, 07:31 PM

I think the three dots with sickle marks tend to be associated with Northern Italy and may represent the Holy Trinity or some say, even grapes.

Maybe the four dots represent some kind of Gothic quatrefoil/kleeblatt which in turn may represent a cross or the four gospels in the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). It may just be a kind of superstitious good luck sign or blessing. I was just wondering because because it seemed to replace the ”Pottenstein” engraved example in Wagner’s book.

ariel · 26th January 2018, 10:07 PM

Victrix,
Please show the entire sword and separately the handle.
There seems to be a twist that pushes me toward Georgian Khmali. I may be wrong, but need better pics.

Victrix · 26th January 2018, 11:24 PM

Ariel, I may have expressed myself in a clumsy way. Only the first sword is mine. It was presented in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I found the picture of the second sword in the forum elsewhere and posted it only for comparison to show the gurda marks. My question is if anyone is familiar with the four dots mark shown on the sabre in the first picture.

26th January 2018, 06:30 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These (three in all) examples are in principle Spanish. They were forged, not cast; those appeared much later. The four dots were surely the mark of the workshop but, as you know, very often early marks represented symbols, magic and so. I remember now who said these were 15th century marks. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...08&postcount=3 I would not associate these dots with the ones in your sword; after all, dots are a symbol easy to occur everywhere and in different periods, as also in more complex setups, like in edged weapons. . Attached Images

25th January 2018, 09:43 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

26th January 2018, 03:16 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It would take someone with more knowledge to answer your questions; even the assumption that the (four) dots are not maker's marks but a period fashion symbol ... or both. ´ When i bought my cannons i have made some search and resumed that the four dots were typical marks of 15th century short cannons; something certainly not applicable to those in your sword. Whether there is a time line linking both, i ignore. In any case, why don't you show us the whole of your sword ?

26th January 2018, 03:30 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Fernando, I presented the sword in a separate thread previously. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528 I thought I would follow up on the four dots mark in this thread dealing specifically with marks, and see if someone recognized them. Are your [small] cannons from a particular geographic location? Could they be the mark of a foundry producing iron? Perhaps the cannons were cast at this foundry and then marked accordingly?

26th January 2018, 07:31 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I think the three dots with sickle marks tend to be associated with Northern Italy and may represent the Holy Trinity or some say, even grapes. Maybe the four dots represent some kind of Gothic quatrefoil/kleeblatt which in turn may represent a cross or the four gospels in the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). It may just be a kind of superstitious good luck sign or blessing. I was just wondering because because it seemed to replace the ”Pottenstein” engraved example in Wagner’s book.

26th January 2018, 10:07 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Victrix, Please show the entire sword and separately the handle. There seems to be a twist that pushes me toward Georgian Khmali. I may be wrong, but need better pics.

26th January 2018, 11:24 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Ariel, I may have expressed myself in a clumsy way. Only the first sword is mine. It was presented in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528 I found the picture of the second sword in the forum elsewhere and posted it only for comparison to show the gurda marks. My question is if anyone is familiar with the four dots mark shown on the sabre in the first picture.