An early English dog lock musket

rickystl · 22nd November 2017, 03:24 PM

Hi Mark.

OMG!! Congratulations !! A very early, and very rare, English doglock musket. Where did you find it ?? And, as Richard says, very deserving of some good photos. In that regard........if you want some assistance in taking photos, you are welcome to send the gun to me

I'll even pay the shipping both ways

Seriously, it's a wonderful aquisition. These are so rarely seen, especially in such complete condition. Some early observations:
The stock profile, and the overall large proportions put this gun in the time frame you first mention above. Probably not any latter. Notice the trigger guard is simply screwed unto the stock, with no inletting to the stock. A common feature. I can't tell from the photos here, but it could have been made without an iron butt plate. Would not surprise me.
LOCK: English doglocks seemed to have appeared since at least the 1640's, in various styles. The early doglocks I've seen had three lock plate screws securing the lock to the stock. This lock appears to have only two, but with a third small screw securing the tail of the lock plate from the lock side. Interesting. But what I first noticed was the hammer stop mounted on the outside of the lock plate. This is a feature seen on snaphaunce locks, which pre-date the doglock. See photo below. Which may suggest that the lock pre-dates 1680 as a transition type of lock. Or it could be that the lock maker simply wanted to keep this feature. Or maybe the lock is even older than the rest of the gun. But from these photos, it looks like the gun was all made together.

Again, Congratulations. A great find. Please post additional photos when you have a chance. Hopefully showing the lock internals. Would be most anxious to see them.

Rick

M ELEY · 23rd November 2017, 04:26 AM

Hello Rick and thank you so much for the good news on the gun. The story behind it was I picked it up at a very high end art and antiques gallery locally. It formally belonged to an English fellow who got it supposedly back in London through a Sotheby's auction. He also had excellent artwork and a piece of tassett armour from the Tower of London (with paperwork for the armor). I suspected that mine never had a butt plate, but was afraid to look foolish if wrong-

. I will work on taking better pics and posting them soon. Thanks again!
Mark

Marcus den toom · 23rd November 2017, 07:18 AM

Always liked these locks and found some interesting references.
Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis...

http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html

Pukka Bundook · 23rd November 2017, 01:03 PM

Mark,

When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work.

Congrats again!

Rick,
Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?

rickystl · 23rd November 2017, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Mark,

When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work.

Congrats again!

Rick,
Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?

Hi Richard.

Yes, it is a TRS English Snaphaunce lock. I would be glad to post it on a seperate Thread - if the Moderator will allow same. Even though it is an exact replica of an original, it's still a replica, and I don't know if the Moderater will allow it. Although he may allow an exception since it would be very difficult to locate an original lock for close viewing.

What say the Moderator ?

fernando · 23rd November 2017, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... Yes, it is a TRS English Snaphaunce lock...Even though it is an exact replica ... I would be glad to post it on a seperate Thread ... What say the Moderator ?

In the context, i would say go ahead. But instead of posting it in a separate thread, why not posting it right here ?

rickystl · 23rd November 2017, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

In the context, i would say go ahead. But instead of posting it in a separate thread, why not posting it right here ?

Hi Fernando

Well, I didn't want to corrupt Mark's Thread here by going off in a direction of various transition locks from the 1600-1650 period. Thought it might be a topic for another discussion.
I have about four locks from this period. While all are exact replicas with the castings taken from original locks, they are still replicas. It might be of interest to the gun enthusiasts on the Forum to view some examples of lock making between the wheellock and what we call the true (French) flintlock periods. The problem is, these locks (as well as the guns) are so rare, it would be difficult to locate anyone who has them. LOL
But, I will leave the decision up to you. I can always send Richard a PM.

Thanks for considering.

Rick

rickystl · 23rd November 2017, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Always liked these locks and found some interesting references.
Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis...

http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html

Hi Marcus.

Thank you for the interesting reading. First time I have seen this.
Those photos showing two variations of the "English" lock, sometimes referred to as a Jacobean lock, although I don't recall why this reference.
The larger photo shows the retaining piece (the proper name escapes me at the moment) between the frizzen screw and the frizzen spring. This feature is also on Mark's lock.
The smaller photo shows one piece being used as both a frizzen spring and a hammer stop. Appears to be an attempt at simplification. Interesting.

I find these early transistion type locks very interesting. It's obvious there was alot of lock experimentation between about 1600-1670 from the wheellock to the French style flintlock.

Rick

Philip · 24th November 2017, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Marcus.

The larger photo shows the retaining piece (the proper name escapes me at the moment) between the frizzen screw and the frizzen spring. This feature is also on Mark's lock.
The smaller photo shows one piece being used as both a frizzen spring and a hammer stop. Appears to be an attempt at simplification. Interesting.

Rick

Rick, I think that connector piece can be termed a frizzen bridle since it provides a two-point support (in conjunction with the lockplate itself) for the pivot screw. It's analogous to the tumbler bridle on the mature French flintlock, and the cock bridle on a miquelet.

You might be interested in the article "The Snaphaunce Muskets of al-Maghreb al-Aqsa" by James Gooding, in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, No. 3. A very informative intro to the long guns of Morocco. The frizzen bridle is seen on all of the examples illustrated and I'm sure you may have detached locks from Moroccan guns in your collection which feature this component as well. Interesting also are the presence of the cock buffer and the large disc that caps the extremity of the priming-pan on these locks, just as seen on your repro English doglock from TRS. All these on a Moroccan lock strongly point to a Dutch antecedent (see Robert Held, THE AGE OF FIREARMS, fig 149, p 71 for photo of a snaphaunce 1590-1630 which is all but identical in form to the later north African version). Considering that arms development in England and the Netherlands was closely linked, it's not surprising to see similar features common to the (much later) dog-lock as well.

rickystl · 24th November 2017, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Rick, I think that connector piece can be termed a frizzen bridle since it provides a two-point support (in conjunction with the lockplate itself) for the pivot screw. It's analogous to the tumbler bridle on the mature French flintlock, and the cock bridle on a miquelet.

You might be interested in the article "The Snaphaunce Muskets of al-Maghreb al-Aqsa" by James Gooding, in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, No. 3. A very informative intro to the long guns of Morocco. The frizzen bridle is seen on all of the examples illustrated and I'm sure you may have detached locks from Moroccan guns in your collection which feature this component as well. Interesting also are the presence of the cock buffer and the large disc that caps the extremity of the priming-pan on these locks, just as seen on your repro English doglock from TRS. All these on a Moroccan lock strongly point to a Dutch antecedent (see Robert Held, THE AGE OF FIREARMS, fig 149, p 71 for photo of a snaphaunce 1590-1630 which is all but identical in form to the later north African version). Considering that arms development in England and the Netherlands was closely linked, it's not surprising to see similar features common to the (much later) dog-lock as well.

Hi Philip.

"Bridle" That's the word I was searching my memory for. LOL Getting old I guess. If I recall, that bridle was used on French infantry muskets till it was discontinued in about 1735-40 I believe.

Yes, I have that article from James Gooding. I ordered it a few years ago from the Canadian Arms Journal. Strangely, it took almost a year for it to arrive. But agreed, it is probably the best intro to the Moroccan snaphaunce longarms I've seen. They basically operate the same as the original, early snaphaunce locks. The difference being the much more narrow lockplates on the Moroccan guns to accomodate the slim stocks. The hammers (cocks) followed either the Dutch or English style.

Rick

22nd November 2017, 03:24 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Mark. OMG!! Congratulations !! A very early, and very rare, English doglock musket. Where did you find it ?? And, as Richard says, very deserving of some good photos. In that regard........if you want some assistance in taking photos, you are welcome to send the gun to me I'll even pay the shipping both ways Seriously, it's a wonderful aquisition. These are so rarely seen, especially in such complete condition. Some early observations: The stock profile, and the overall large proportions put this gun in the time frame you first mention above. Probably not any latter. Notice the trigger guard is simply screwed unto the stock, with no inletting to the stock. A common feature. I can't tell from the photos here, but it could have been made without an iron butt plate. Would not surprise me. LOCK: English doglocks seemed to have appeared since at least the 1640's, in various styles. The early doglocks I've seen had three lock plate screws securing the lock to the stock. This lock appears to have only two, but with a third small screw securing the tail of the lock plate from the lock side. Interesting. But what I first noticed was the hammer stop mounted on the outside of the lock plate. This is a feature seen on snaphaunce locks, which pre-date the doglock. See photo below. Which may suggest that the lock pre-dates 1680 as a transition type of lock. Or it could be that the lock maker simply wanted to keep this feature. Or maybe the lock is even older than the rest of the gun. But from these photos, it looks like the gun was all made together. Again, Congratulations. A great find. Please post additional photos when you have a chance. Hopefully showing the lock internals. Would be most anxious to see them. Rick Attached Images

23rd November 2017, 07:18 AM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Always liked these locks and found some interesting references. Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis... http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html Attached Images

23rd November 2017, 04:26 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,169	Hello Rick and thank you so much for the good news on the gun. The story behind it was I picked it up at a very high end art and antiques gallery locally. It formally belonged to an English fellow who got it supposedly back in London through a Sotheby's auction. He also had excellent artwork and a piece of tassett armour from the Tower of London (with paperwork for the armor). I suspected that mine never had a butt plate, but was afraid to look foolish if wrong- . I will work on taking better pics and posting them soon. Thanks again! Mark

23rd November 2017, 01:03 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Mark, When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work. Congrats again! Rick, Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?