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Old 2nd April 2016, 03:06 PM   #1
fernando
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Default A blunderbuss with an early lock

So according to what is registered, the dog lock system preceded the real flint lock and saw action to around 1700. Hence this example is a relic. With a 48 cms. barrel shortened from that of a musket and having its muzzle 'abacarmatado' ('blunderbussized'), it has signs of being Portuguese, as per its triggerguard in a scallop shape, for one.
The suggestive suspension ring visibly dates from the time this gun was transformed into a 'handy' blunderbuss.
Caliber circa 16 m/m. Total length 83 cms. Weight 2728 grs.

Anyone here has with this kind of pieces ... or may give an opinion about this one ?

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Old 2nd April 2016, 03:20 PM   #2
Pukka Bundook
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Good morning Fernando,

This is a very interesting looking piece.
I know next to nothing of Portuguese arms, but can say that by the style of the stock, and the tang screw entering the tang from below, plus the dog -lock, that I would say this piece is from the1690's at any rate.
Earlier locks often were attached with three sidenails rather than the two we see here, but the lock is very archaic looking and I don't think newer than I suggest.
The buttstock shape also says from the 1690's rather than early 18th century.

I recall something about muskets being reduced in length in this manner, but not well enough to say anything further!
Again, an interesting arm!

Richard.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 07:41 PM   #3
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Thank you Richard: observations well noted.
Musket barrels being reduced in length used to be a rather common exercise. In Portugal, for one, during troubled periods (Peninsular and thereabouts) people mainly in rural places had local smiths to assemble parts of muskets left back by either side armies and build hand made blunderbusses. For statistically reasons, most setups were made with British parts, namely locks and shortened barrels. The basic reason for the barrel shortening was, more than the need to used them in confined places, like from inside carriages, the practice to go out at night and hide them under one's coat, for eventual defence against assailants. Other cases like this one posted, i guess, would be to shorten the barrel from an integral musket, for the same purpose.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 09:07 PM   #4
Pukka Bundook
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I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback.

If only it could talk!

Richard.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 10:28 PM   #5
Fernando K
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Hello

Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks

Affectionately. Fernando K
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Old 3rd April 2016, 01:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
Hello

Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks

Affectionately. Fernando K



I suspect the screw is a replacement. A very minor consideration on a gun of this age!

A very nice weapon, and one that could easily find a home in my pile.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 04:53 AM   #7
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Awesome early blunderbuss, Fernando! It kind of reminded me of a wall gun (as in those mammoth swivel types protecting forts). I know it's not, based on the length, but I'm with Richard that it could easily have been a coach gun.

About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. If it is ash, is this a common wood for a gun stock? Not my area, so just thinking aloud and hoping for education on this! Wormy ash was the #1 choice for pike hafts-
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Old 3rd April 2016, 05:42 AM   #8
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RE ash,

No clue on Portugal, but ash was used at this time in England and Northern Europe, even for matchlock tillers/stocks. It wasn't the only wood used, as walnut, fruitwood and elm were used and walnut being the most popular. Maple /sycamore used as well.

The ring type vise pin in the cock is more Spanish ,Portuguese/Mediterranean, but very practical and sometimes seen even in Scotland. Could well be a replacement sometime in its very long life.

Has the barrel any proofs?
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Old 3rd April 2016, 08:48 PM   #9
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Default britisch doglock ?

good evening ,aside the yaw-screw i possess a very similar rifle in its original configuration ,the allmost identical barrel has 2 british proofmarks on the left side of the barrel. the gun is 84 cm long . there is a good chance this very early doglock-carbine is from england. (my guess) iskender Switzerland
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Old 3rd April 2016, 09:02 PM   #10
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Default british doglock ?

gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender
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Old 4th April 2016, 01:01 AM   #11
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Iskender,

I understand, and believe the same word "flinte" is used in Germany is it not?

Best wishes,
Richard.
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Old 4th April 2016, 09:03 AM   #12
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Quote:
I understand, and believe the same word "flinte" is used in Germany is it not?


Yes, the word "Flinte" is a German word and as a great part of the Swiss are talking in German language they use the same expression
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Old 4th April 2016, 02:36 PM   #13
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Thank you guys for your kind and wise considerations ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback.
If only it could talk!...

I don’t think the hanging loop was a for a formal shoulder ‘bandolier’; maybe for a belt hanging hook, so that you had your hands free. It could even be to hang the gun on the wall, when at rest. As you say, if it could speak …

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
Hello
Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks
Affectionately. Fernando K

Gracias por la nota, Fernando

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakethetrees
... A very nice weapon, and one that could easily find a home in my pile.

Considering you already have a pile, you don’t need this one more .

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
... About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. ...

Well captain, the collector fellow who sold me this piece is a timber man. He reminds that walnut is a rather wormy wood; of which potentially this stock was made of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
...Has the barrel any proofs?

So far i don’t discern any proof marks, neither on the barrel nor in the lock, under the heavy patina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iskender
gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender

Ah, the typology of shoulder guns. In my language they are generically called espingardas; an ancient type may be called mosquete, a later short one a carabina and the ones with flared muzzles (blunderbusses) are bacamartes.

Concernung the 'flinte' ... here for such attribution we call it pederneira (from the latin pretinariu- petrinu= stone) whereas the Spanish call it chispa (spark).
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Old 4th April 2016, 03:06 PM   #14
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Fernando,

Re the sling bar;
this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches. The gun could hang down at the side, leaving the hands free, as the guard was also responsible for blowing the coach horn.
The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side.
I am not saying this gun Was an English coaching blunderbuss as I don't think it was, but I believe it was carried in this fashion beyond any real doubt.

As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :-)

Best regards,

Richard.
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Old 4th April 2016, 03:19 PM   #15
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Default flinte/büchse/ tromblon

[QUOTE=Pukka Bundook]Iskender,

I understand, and believe the same word "flinte" is used in Germany is it not?

richard, in germany and the swiss-german kantons , a long handgun with a smoothbore barrel is called a "Flinte" the same with a rifled barrel is called a "Büchse". so a dubbelbarreld shotgun is a "Doppelflinte", a long gun with 2 rifled barrels is a "Doppelbüchse" ,a combination can be things like "Bockbüchsflinte" ,"Doppelbockbüchse" and many variants more , specially made in Ferlach in form of high quality "Hunting-rifles". A blunderbuss we call a "Tromblon" with is french, the germans call that thing a "Donnerbüchse" with is technically incorrekt as the Tromblon is mostly a smoothbore "flinte" and not a "büchse", but who cares about things like that ! (nobody). greetings Iskender
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Old 4th April 2016, 03:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
... this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches...
The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side ...As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :

I know it works fine the way you mention, Richard; i was only realizing that it can also hang from different spots. In my eyes i don't see this particular gun in so formal service, but more like a private weapon. But it is only my imagination ... at least so far.
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Old 4th April 2016, 04:00 PM   #17
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Iskender,

Thank you for the explanation!! I had some of it from German hunting book, and it Still confuses me!

Fernando,

Yes, as you suggest, it could be hung from anything with this butterfly swivel, and I also believe you are right regarding it being a private weapon.

Still, such a swivel was very useful, see below;

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 4th April 2016, 05:05 PM   #18
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Quite nice, thanks. Mine hangs vertically ...

.
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Old 4th April 2016, 10:48 PM   #19
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Default a dog will have his day...

Fernando,
The dog-lock on your gun is considerable interest. This type is most associated with England, mid-to-latter 17th cent. There is an example whose cock jaw screw has a ring terminus, as on a miquelet, on a musket ca. 1650 in the Tower of London collection (now Royal Armouries Mus.), inv. no. XII-48. The lock on that gun, however, is of more archaic form than yours since it has a 3-bolt attachment to the stock, not the 2 as on yours. The shape of its plate is also patterned after that of the earlier snaphaunce, whereas your blunderbuss' lockplate is the more usual "French" type that became standard as the 17th cent. drew to a close.

The use of the dog-lock also spread to northern Germany. The Livrustkammaren in Stockholm has two pieces relevant to your lock, albeit in very decorative, luxus-sporting guise -- a detached lock signed Paul Rolof, Stettin (now a part of Poland), ca. 1680, and a complete rifle by Berndt Orther, also of Stettin but a decade later. The shape of the cock and lockplate on both are very similar to the mechanism on your gun, but the jaw screw terminates in a slotted bulb, not ring. These German locks also feature a 2-bolt attachment to the stock.

So these examples help corroborate the attribution of last quarter of 17th cent. to the lock on your gun. It could be an outlier of slightly later date from a very conservative area, but considering that the true flintlock with internal half-cock safety had started to become more and more popular after the mid-17th cent., I rather doubt that dog-lock manufacture persisted much after ca. 1700.

The examples referenced above can be seen in H. L. Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965). Also, it is worth noting from Torsten Lenk's writing (THE FLINTLOCK, Swedish edition 1939, English 2007) that the dog lock was NOT the predecessor to the "true" flintlock -- it existed contemporaneously to it, and appeared AFTER the latter came into existence.
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Old 4th April 2016, 11:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iskender
...a dubbelbarreld shotgun is a "Doppelflinte", a long gun with 2 rifled barrels is a "Doppelbüchse" ,a combination can be things like "Bockbüchsflinte" ,"Doppelbockbüchse"..


timeout: bier time, or a nice taylors. ruby red port.

i had a loosiana cajun buddy in texas on a construction project we were supervising, his name was tom hebert (pronounced A-Bear) he told me a story about his grandpere beudreaux (boo-drow) hebert. on day he was returning from a duck hunt and tom saw beudreaux had 40 mallards in his pirogue (dugout canoe).

tom said 'hi granpaw, that's a lotta ducks, how many shells did it take? you musta bin shootin all day!

ol' beudreaux said, jes two. , is all i needed.my two-hole shootsgun jus hols two shell. twenny beebee each shell. bin gone jes a haff hour.

tom said 'grandad, i don't believe you, yer tellin me a tall tale.

ol' beudreaux sez, you yung whippersnapper, you get up at 5 a.m. termorra and comes a shootin wif me & i'll show you. betcha a whole dollar i get a dock wif evry beebee.

now that was a whole days wage back then.

next day they goes ahuntin' in the pirogue agin. flock of mllard docks flies by overhead. beaudreax lets fly with the left barrel. 20 duckies fall into the pirogue. he lets fly with the right barrel. 19 ducks fall into the boat. tom says excitedly 'i win! you only got 19!' just then a mallard comes flyin by, a duckin' and a divin' and loop de loopin', followed by that last tenacious beebee, beudreax sez 'son, jus wait a minute...'.

i know this is a true story, tom showed me that two hole shootsgun. or mebbe it was a Doppelflinte. in any case, it had two external hammers. the story is easier to believe if you tell it in a french accent tho. tom even showed me the dollar was missin from his wallet.

p.s. - beudreaux was also a frugal ol' sod, he dug them beebee outta them docks and reused them. they got smarter every time he did. thats why tom had the shootsgun, beu didn't need it enny more. whenever he wants a dock dinner he just throws a few o' them beebees out the winder an they fetch him a passle of docks.

we now return you to your regularly scheduled dissertation.

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Old 5th April 2016, 01:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
The use of the dog-lock also spread to northern Germany.


Not only was used the dog lock in northern Germany but also in southern Germany and in Austria. The pistol with the dog lock is a cuirassier pistol M 1729 of Saxony and the carbine is an Austrian cavalry carbine M 1789.
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Old 5th April 2016, 01:57 PM   #22
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Thank you so much for your input, Philip.
Meanwhile i have browsing on this thing ...
Norman pretends that this system is probably of Spanish or Moorish origin, then used by Brits during the second half XVII century, as you well mention.
Lavin mentions and shows a sketch of a Sinhalese (agujeta) lock as being introduced there by the Portuguese (prior to 1658), familiar with this system, with a calço atras (back wedge).
If you notice in Espingarda Perfeita by R. Daehnhardt, one example in the last row (1620-1680) is such Sinhales type again.
... or am i mixing the whole thing ... .
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Old 6th April 2016, 12:24 AM   #23
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Fernando,
Or I should say, not all dogs are created equal.
1. Norman could not be correct on this. The north European dog-lock, of which you have an example, is not developmentally connected to any of the dog-locks of the Mediterranean or Oriental worlds (the agujeta, the Sinhalese snap lock, etc) for the simple reason that the former has an internal mainspring, and all of the latter have external springs.

2. Furthermore, the sear (the assembly that releases the cock upon pull of trigger) is entirely internal on the northern dog-lock. It is a one-piece L shaped arm under spring tension, with studs that engage a tumbler or nut on the cock's axis bolt. The sear system on the agujeta (either the Hispanic or Algerian types) is a 2-piece assemblage with a stud or nose that engages the cock directly through an aperture in the lockplate; on this type of lock there is no tumbler. See Blackmore, pp 112-15 for text and diagrams.

3. I'm not sure whether the Sinhalese snaplock is a direct descendant of the agujeta. A comparison of the sear systems is in order, and I can't find this aspect illustrated in any of my reference books. Lavin's article "Spanish Agujeta-lock Firearms" in ART, ARMS AND ARMOUR (ed. Robert Held, 1979) emphasizes that the Iberian version typically has a wheellock-derived lockplate profile -- trapezoidal with an obtuse point at the bottom, AND is equipped with two bridles or support bridges for the cock and frizzen pivot screws. The Sinhalese lock has a different plate and lacks a frizzen bridle. Daehnhardt, in ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA, contends that the Sinhalese lock originates with the Italian miquelet "alla romana" which may well be the case. Again, a comparison of the sear design will help resolve this.

Note that the trapzoidal lockplate is absent on the Algerian version of the agujeta although functionally it remains the same, and even inherits the big alligator jaws and the wing-top screw on the cock of the later Spanish versions. From this we can expect some stylistic changes when the Sinhalese developed their snaplock, whether it be from prototypes originating in Spain, Italy, or even Portugal.

Sorry if this sounds so convoluted and geeky, if you need any clarification please let me know.
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Old 6th April 2016, 04:43 PM   #24
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O.K. Philip, i get it; not the scholar technicalities but that, my ship has nothing to do with the goats, meaning the dog lock is a system per se.
So i retire to my corner and thank you for your input .
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Old 6th April 2016, 07:43 PM   #25
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Hello

Corrado, it would be interesting to know if besides the safety hook (dog-lock), the nut has also tooth half-cock. You could upload photographs inside the lock? Thank you

affectionately. Fernando K
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Old 7th April 2016, 08:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
You could upload photographs inside the lock?


As all of the shown firearms are sold meanwhile I only can post fotos existing in my archive. But what I can say is that all these dog locks have a half-cock tooth at the tumbler.
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Old 7th April 2016, 04:08 PM   #27
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Hello

Thank you, Corrado. The photographs do not let you see the tooth in half-cock nut, but I trust in your word. Then the dog-lock would be an additional safety means.

Affectionately. Fernando K
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Old 7th April 2016, 09:09 PM   #28
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Hello
Now I think of a question. The safety hook (lock.dog) not being commanded by a spring and automatically removed (as in agugetalock or lock Ceylan) can not be engaged and prevent the shot to reach full-cock?
Affectionately. Fernando K
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Old 7th April 2016, 10:24 PM   #29
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Yes Fernando, i have read that this would be a handicap of this system (some article in castillian, don't remember where).
The author said the catch could be a problem in either being too tight and difficultate the full cocking or being too lose and... i don't recall the precise words.
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Old 7th April 2016, 11:20 PM   #30
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Seems to me that the catch would be rather inconvenient to operate if it isn't under spring tension as with the agujeta and its variants. Am trying to visualize this, it looks like a two hand operation that should be performed with both hands on the same side of the gun. Fernando, have you learned an easy way to engage and disengage your dog catch?
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