The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:01 PM

Old 27th July 2016, 08:05 PM #286

Posred by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Corrado, thank you so much for the additional notes on the IHS symbol, and Fernando for your further explained observations on same.
It seems there are key dynamics associated with this three letter symbol, known as noted as the Christogram, which help us better understand its possible intention as used in marking weapons.
To add to Wayne's well detailed notes.

In early times, scribes often abbreviated Jesus' name with the two first letters of his name , or the first and last, with a line over the letters.
The Greek letters Chi (as with 'x') and Rho (as with P) abbreviated, were often used (Christ) as well.

Also, I (iota) and H (eta) first two letters for Jesus (early alphabets saw the I as J.

By the 2nd century, the S (sigma) was also added thus rendering IHS.

These Christograms were used as secret codes used on tombs, door posts etc. to designate one as Christian.

By the 15th century St. Bernadine of Sienna and his student St. John of Capistrano used the Christogram in preaching missions, and in Italy often used wood placards with surround of rays with IHS. The devout were encouraged to use this monogram in place of their own family crests etc. Pope Martin in 1427 asked for cross to be added.

However, by these times, the use and knowledge of Greek was in decline, and Latin predominated leading to the misperception that IHS represented
Iesus Hominum Salvator.
In the following years, this Christogram became added often into the motif on sword blades, known to used for example by Caino in Italy, and of course followed in suit by many others and across Europe,

Ibrahiim and Wayne, thank you for these keynote examples of the cartography of these times, which truly add perspective and better understanding of temporal attitudes and superstitions often held.
It is easy to understand how these kinds of religious and talismanic devices and symbols became legion on weaponry given the perils in warfare as well as perceived supernatural forces.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:01 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 06:52 AM #287

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 2,288

Battle of the Milvian Bridge

legend has it that just before the battle emperor constatine had a vision (from God) and had his legionnaires paint the chi-rho on their shields, and won the battle tho outnumbered. the 'vision' story, and the chi-rho on shields is likely not true, it's not mentioned until much later than the battle by christian scholars. constantine did convert to christianity, from the monotheistic sol invictus religion* & was the first to allow christianity as well as the traditional gods. ch-rho was thereafter popular theme on legionary tombstones and caskets.

*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUNday.

(missing attachments)

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:02 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 06:31 PM #288

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by kronckew
*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUN DAY. (Quote)

From when such day, originally called Dies Sole, due to it been a day for Pagans gathering, was changed to Dies Dominus (day of the Lord), declared the first day of the week. But i bet you don't know why in Portugal the rest of the week days have an exclusive nomenclature, decided by a Church big shot .

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:02 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM #289

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

monday=Segunda-feira
tuesday=terça-feira
thursday=quinta-feira
friday=Sexta-feira
saturday=sábado
sunday=domingo

boring workdays seem to be numerical, the weekend days are liturgical, saturday was the old sabbath day, sunday is in the church's minds, the lord's day (dominus), and thus the first day, which is why monday is segunda.

feira=market, so i guess that the weekdays are market days, that is 'working' days where the people generally did not have the time to get into religious trouble, as opposed to the licentious weekends where they needed tha firm hand of the church's guidance to keep them in line.

us heretics, however, still honour the old gods.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:02 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 09:10 PM #290

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Ah, ah .
You missed wednesday=quarta-feira, by the way.
The whole thing started in the year 563, when a church concilium was held in the Portuguese city of Braga. Bishop Martinho was the one that decided on naming the days in such way. Feira, first of all,comes from feria=resting (holiday). Contrary to one's perplexity that week days are for working and not for rest, the bishop's original idea was only to apply those names to the Holy Week, but later common people vulgarized the norm and attributed it to the whole year. Therefore the first day being Domingo, the next is segunda (second) feira, then terça (third) feira and so on.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:03 PM

Old 4th August 2016, 09:03 PM #291

Posted by:
blue lander
Member

Join Date: Nov 2013

Does anybody recognize this mark?

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:03 PM

Old 4th August 2016, 09:51 PM #292

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by blue lander
Does anybody recognize this mark? (Quote)

What sort of blade is this on?
Unusual to see this kind of cartouche on tang rather than blade.
.

19th October 2017, 04:01 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th July 2016, 08:05 PM #286 Posred by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Corrado, thank you so much for the additional notes on the IHS symbol, and Fernando for your further explained observations on same. It seems there are key dynamics associated with this three letter symbol, known as noted as the Christogram, which help us better understand its possible intention as used in marking weapons. To add to Wayne's well detailed notes. In early times, scribes often abbreviated Jesus' name with the two first letters of his name , or the first and last, with a line over the letters. The Greek letters Chi (as with 'x') and Rho (as with P) abbreviated, were often used (Christ) as well. Also, I (iota) and H (eta) first two letters for Jesus (early alphabets saw the I as J. By the 2nd century, the S (sigma) was also added thus rendering IHS. These Christograms were used as secret codes used on tombs, door posts etc. to designate one as Christian. By the 15th century St. Bernadine of Sienna and his student St. John of Capistrano used the Christogram in preaching missions, and in Italy often used wood placards with surround of rays with IHS. The devout were encouraged to use this monogram in place of their own family crests etc. Pope Martin in 1427 asked for cross to be added. However, by these times, the use and knowledge of Greek was in decline, and Latin predominated leading to the misperception that IHS represented Iesus Hominum Salvator. In the following years, this Christogram became added often into the motif on sword blades, known to used for example by Caino in Italy, and of course followed in suit by many others and across Europe, Ibrahiim and Wayne, thank you for these keynote examples of the cartography of these times, which truly add perspective and better understanding of temporal attitudes and superstitions often held. It is easy to understand how these kinds of religious and talismanic devices and symbols became legion on weaponry given the perils in warfare as well as perceived supernatural forces. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:52 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:02 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th July 2016, 06:31 PM #288 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Originally Posted by kronckew this is why the christian sabbath is on SUN DAY. (Quote) From when such day, originally called Dies Sole, due to it been a day for Pagans gathering, was changed to Dies Dominus (day of the Lord), declared the first day of the week. But i bet you don't know why in Portugal the rest of the week days have an exclusive nomenclature, decided by a Church big shot . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:55 PM.*

19th October 2017, 04:02 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM #289 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK monday=Segunda-feira tuesday=terça-feira thursday=quinta-feira friday=Sexta-feira saturday=sábado sunday=domingo boring workdays seem to be numerical, the weekend days are liturgical, saturday was the old sabbath day, sunday is in the church's minds, the lord's day (dominus), and thus the first day, which is why monday is segunda. feira=market, so i guess that the weekdays are market days, that is 'working' days where the people generally did not have the time to get into religious trouble, as opposed to the licentious weekends where they needed tha firm hand of the church's guidance to keep them in line. us heretics, however, still honour the old gods. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:56 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:02 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th July 2016, 09:10 PM #290 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Ah, ah . You missed wednesday=quarta-feira, by the way. The whole thing started in the year 563, when a church concilium was held in the Portuguese city of Braga. Bishop Martinho was the one that decided on naming the days in such way. Feira, first of all,comes from feria=resting (holiday). Contrary to one's perplexity that week days are for working and not for rest, the bishop's original idea was only to apply those names to the Holy Week, but later common people vulgarized the norm and attributed it to the whole year. Therefore the first day being Domingo, the next is segunda (second) feira, then terça (third) feira and so on. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:57 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:03 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th August 2016, 09:03 PM #291 Posted by: blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Does anybody recognize this mark? (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:32 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:01 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	IN HOC SIGNO VINCES Old 28th July 2016, 06:52 AM #287 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK Posts: 2,288 Battle of the Milvian Bridge legend has it that just before the battle emperor constatine had a vision (from God) and had his legionnaires paint the chi-rho on their shields, and won the battle tho outnumbered. the 'vision' story, and the chi-rho on shields is likely not true, it's not mentioned until much later than the battle by christian scholars. constantine did convert to christianity, from the monotheistic sol invictus religion* & was the first to allow christianity as well as the traditional gods. ch-rho was thereafter popular theme on legionary tombstones and caskets. this is why the christian sabbath is on SUNday. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:32 PM.*