The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:38 PM

Old 4th June 2012, 09:42 PM #241

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end.
The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following:
It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword.
As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present.
This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth.
Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol.
Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately .

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:38 PM

Old 4th June 2012, 10:14 PM #242

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Another sword i remembered having seen at a neighbour collector, with the snake and its mouth ... and other traditional symbols

(missing attachments)

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:39 PM

Old 18th June 2012, 11:38 AM #243

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

Lightbulb * Dime el * Aterro *
A needed addition....perhaps some light will come.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15707

Gav
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:39 PM

Old 18th June 2012, 02:18 PM #244

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany -
the center of 15th and 16th
century gunmaking

Hi 'Nando,

The wavy serpent-shaped ornament, as I have often pointed out, is a very old European decorative element which was used from ancient times thru the Gothic, Renaissance and Early Baroque periods.

It shows up especially (though not exclusively) on almost all kinds of ironworks, including early- to mid-16th century barrels which were symbolically seen as the incarnation of a fire throwing monster such as a dragon or serpent. Some muzzles of barrels of that Renaissance period were even shaped as fire-spitting zoomorphic animals.

These facts kept in mind, it is in my opinion impossible to assign a stylized serpent ornament on a blade to a certain maker or center of production, although they were mostly employed in North Italian and South German regions.
This is NOT a mark but as you say just a traditional symbol, an ornament; that's all there is to it.

Some illustrations:

From top:

- an antenna rapier, late 16th c., from the Collection of the Princes of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vaduz (1 image)

- a fish-tail rapier, late 16th c., from Schloss Ambras (2 images)

- a Landsknecht's saber, South German, ca. 1540 (2)

- muzzles of three Nuremberg arquebus barrels, ca. 1530, especially the one on top (1)

- detail of a Nuremberg arquebus barrel dated 1539 (2)

- detail of another Nuremberg barrel, ca. 1550

- detail of a mid-16th c. igniting iron (1)

- detail of the muzzle of an arquebus, ca. 1530, Schloss Heidecksburg (1)

- detail of the staghorn inlaid tiller of a crossbow, ca. 1520's, Schloss Heidecksburg (1)

- detail of an engraved serpent amidst foliage, on a Nuremberg cranequin, dated 1545 (1)

Best,
Michl

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:40 PM

#245

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding entries guys!
Fernando thank you for the update on the serpent motif on that cuphilt and for sharing the outcome of suggestions from the contacts you note. It does seem a quite viable possibility that these heraldic associations might well come into play in some manner when a swordsmith selected motif or designs to place in his blades. We have of course long established that many otherwise generally used devices have been placed on blades in talismanic or magical sense along with makers marks. It does seem also well known that certain symbols or devices which allude to particular political or ruling factions may be the source for some markings, and these 'coded' symbols are well known in Italy and many others. The Jacobites in Scotland used certain symbols in thier openwork and piercing on baskethilts in many cases, but the subject remains largely unresearched.

I think Jasper's notes on the use of the serpent or dragon in medieval blades is well placed as not only a Christian related symbol, but was established as a symbol of power in the warriors sense from the times of the Vikings. The outstanding article by Lee Jones, "The Serpent in the Blade" explains the perception of the pattern welding in the blades perceived as a snake or serpent, and via the sword itself as a symbol of strength. In the medieval period there was of course in Europe the well known Order of the Dragon, which may trace origins into ancient times with this creature used as a totem of military strength.

In the case of the last entry by Fernando showing the blade with multiple crossbars on the well known cross and orb as well as the undulating device with the 'V' mouth and dots or stars in the alternating curves, it seems this may be intended as talismanic or magical. The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. This device was later adopted by Solingen as they began producing spuriously marked blades representing Spanish forms. While these marks are perceived as religious in degree, they are essentially invocations calling amuletically for protection and strength. The serpent with its military connotations seems of course well placed in this context.

Regarding the use of undulating lines as well as alternating 's' marks in linear motif or in profiling segments of a weapon, it seems that these are often somewhat aesthetically chosen designs. However it must be considered that the possibility of subtle association or nuance may well have been at hand in the choice of the artisan fashioning or marking the blade.
In the case of firearms, naturally the often applied metaphor and colloquial reference to many guns referred to dragons with the fire breathing feature well noted.

The 'dime el aterro' blade added by Gav here is also intriguing. While the translation examination presents an interesting conundrum, I think it is important to note Fernando's earlier description of regulated blade lengths in Spain and Portugal as I believe he noted. This blade which is now mounted in a firangi is about 41" long, and would seem to correspond to the longer blades which exceeded the five span limitation. This then may explain its presence in this firangi in accord with Fernando's note that many of these 'outlaw' blades were apparantly exported (possibly after confiscation?) to India and other trade entrepots. I am inclined to believe that the blade is either a Solingen product or Italian (similar to many of thier blades) , however due to the seemingly corrupted or transliterated nature of the inscription perhaps the blade never even reached the markets in Spain or Portugal due to these restrictions.

Thank you again Fernando, Michael and Gav for adding these entries to this thread and adding to the archived material which I hope many will find useful as well as promoting ongoing research.

I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them.

All the very best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:41 PM

#246

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany -
the center of 15th and 16th
century gunmaking

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Outstanding entries guys!
The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades.
I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them.
All the very best,
Jim (Quote)

Hi Jim,
Thank you so much once more! I feel more than rewarded by the feedback that my comprehensive archives can sometimes be of some use to some people.
As to the cross and orb mark, from all what I have gathered on early blades, it was mostly used in the South German and Austrian areas throughout the 16th c, mostly in the first half. Thus it is often found on Pasau and Munich blades, and it was also struck on a fine Messer, ca. 1500-20, from the Princely Collections of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vadz, that once was in my collection; photos attached.

For more on this fine specimen, plesse see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...0&page=12&pp=30,

posts # 360 and 361.

Interesting enough I have never noticed a cross and orb mark on any barrel or lock so it seems definitely to have been confined to blades.

Best,
Michael

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:41 PM

Old 29th June 2012, 09:05 PM #247

Posted by:
Matchlock
(deceased)

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking

In some instances, 16th c. artists were astoundingly exact in their depictions, including the representation of characteristic blade marks.

Attached please find a depiction of a cross-and-orb mark, together with a wavy serpent ornament, on the blade of a ca. 1540's Landsknecht saber, in a painting by Lucas Cranach the Younger, dated 1584, preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg.

Author's photos, 1995.
Please see also

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1713#post141713

Best,
Michael

(missing attachments)
.

19th October 2017, 03:38 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th June 2012, 09:42 PM #241 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end. The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following: It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword. As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present. This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth. Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol. Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately . . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:45 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:39 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 18th June 2012, 11:38 AM #243 Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Lightbulb * Dime el * Aterro * A needed addition....perhaps some light will come. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15707 Gav . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:48 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:39 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Traditional serpent ornament Old 18th June 2012, 02:18 PM #244 Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Hi 'Nando, The wavy serpent-shaped ornament, as I have often pointed out, is a very old European decorative element which was used from ancient times thru the Gothic, Renaissance and Early Baroque periods. It shows up especially (though not exclusively) on almost all kinds of ironworks, including early- to mid-16th century barrels which were symbolically seen as the incarnation of a fire throwing monster such as a dragon or serpent. Some muzzles of barrels of that Renaissance period were even shaped as fire-spitting zoomorphic animals. These facts kept in mind, it is in my opinion impossible to assign a stylized serpent ornament on a blade to a certain maker or center of production, although they were mostly employed in North Italian and South German regions. This is NOT a mark but as you say just a traditional symbol, an ornament; that's all there is to it. Some illustrations: From top: - an antenna rapier, late 16th c., from the Collection of the Princes of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vaduz (1 image) - a fish-tail rapier, late 16th c., from Schloss Ambras (2 images) - a Landsknecht's saber, South German, ca. 1540 (2) - muzzles of three Nuremberg arquebus barrels, ca. 1530, especially the one on top (1) - detail of a Nuremberg arquebus barrel dated 1539 (2) - detail of another Nuremberg barrel, ca. 1550 - detail of a mid-16th c. igniting iron (1) - detail of the muzzle of an arquebus, ca. 1530, Schloss Heidecksburg (1) - detail of the staghorn inlaid tiller of a crossbow, ca. 1520's, Schloss Heidecksburg (1) - detail of an engraved serpent amidst foliage, on a Nuremberg cranequin, dated 1545 (1) Best, Michl (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:23 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:40 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	#245 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Outstanding entries guys! Fernando thank you for the update on the serpent motif on that cuphilt and for sharing the outcome of suggestions from the contacts you note. It does seem a quite viable possibility that these heraldic associations might well come into play in some manner when a swordsmith selected motif or designs to place in his blades. We have of course long established that many otherwise generally used devices have been placed on blades in talismanic or magical sense along with makers marks. It does seem also well known that certain symbols or devices which allude to particular political or ruling factions may be the source for some markings, and these 'coded' symbols are well known in Italy and many others. The Jacobites in Scotland used certain symbols in thier openwork and piercing on baskethilts in many cases, but the subject remains largely unresearched. I think Jasper's notes on the use of the serpent or dragon in medieval blades is well placed as not only a Christian related symbol, but was established as a symbol of power in the warriors sense from the times of the Vikings. The outstanding article by Lee Jones, "The Serpent in the Blade" explains the perception of the pattern welding in the blades perceived as a snake or serpent, and via the sword itself as a symbol of strength. In the medieval period there was of course in Europe the well known Order of the Dragon, which may trace origins into ancient times with this creature used as a totem of military strength. In the case of the last entry by Fernando showing the blade with multiple crossbars on the well known cross and orb as well as the undulating device with the 'V' mouth and dots or stars in the alternating curves, it seems this may be intended as talismanic or magical. The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. This device was later adopted by Solingen as they began producing spuriously marked blades representing Spanish forms. While these marks are perceived as religious in degree, they are essentially invocations calling amuletically for protection and strength. The serpent with its military connotations seems of course well placed in this context. Regarding the use of undulating lines as well as alternating 's' marks in linear motif or in profiling segments of a weapon, it seems that these are often somewhat aesthetically chosen designs. However it must be considered that the possibility of subtle association or nuance may well have been at hand in the choice of the artisan fashioning or marking the blade. In the case of firearms, naturally the often applied metaphor and colloquial reference to many guns referred to dragons with the fire breathing feature well noted. The 'dime el aterro' blade added by Gav here is also intriguing. While the translation examination presents an interesting conundrum, I think it is important to note Fernando's earlier description of regulated blade lengths in Spain and Portugal as I believe he noted. This blade which is now mounted in a firangi is about 41" long, and would seem to correspond to the longer blades which exceeded the five span limitation. This then may explain its presence in this firangi in accord with Fernando's note that many of these 'outlaw' blades were apparantly exported (possibly after confiscation?) to India and other trade entrepots. I am inclined to believe that the blade is either a Solingen product or Italian (similar to many of thier blades) , however due to the seemingly corrupted or transliterated nature of the inscription perhaps the blade never even reached the markets in Spain or Portugal due to these restrictions. Thank you again Fernando, Michael and Gav for adding these entries to this thread and adding to the archived material which I hope many will find useful as well as promoting ongoing research. I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them. All the very best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:51 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:41 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	#246 Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Outstanding entries guys! The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them. All the very best, Jim (Quote) Hi Jim, Thank you so much once more! I feel more than rewarded by the feedback that my comprehensive archives can sometimes be of some use to some people. As to the cross and orb mark, from all what I have gathered on early blades, it was mostly used in the South German and Austrian areas throughout the 16th c, mostly in the first half. Thus it is often found on Pasau and Munich blades, and it was also struck on a fine Messer, ca. 1500-20, from the Princely Collections of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vadz, that once was in my collection; photos attached. For more on this fine specimen, plesse see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...0&page=12&pp=30, posts # 360 and 361. Interesting enough I have never noticed a cross and orb mark on any barrel or lock so it seems definitely to have been confined to blades. Best, Michael (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:24 PM.