The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:03 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 07:52 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Not being a collector of weapons, but of edged tools, in particular the billhook, I can give some background to this from a different perspective. Early edge tools were made by the individual smith, for local use, and were probably never marked, other than possible decorative or symbolic markings - usually stamped with chisels and serrated gouges.

If the smith was one of a group, or had a wider market, then some form of idenification was used - usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised.

In the UK iron and steel tools were often marked in the late 18th century and early 19th with three individual letter stamps - forename, surname and location of the smith. Later, c 1830 - 1850, individual word stamps were used, e.g. JOHN, FUSSELL, MELLS - sometimes stamped upside down, or in the wrong order. Edge tool makers were often also cutlers in the larger centres such as Sheffield, and adopted the trade or guild marks on their edge tools as well..

By 1850 machine cut stamps were being used which allowed all the information to be stamped on in one go... Most edge tool makers also used some form of trademark to denote the quality of their tools - the Crown was used by several as a mark of quality (e.g. by Gilpin, Brades and Swift) probably a reference to best Crown Steel as used by scythe and sickle makers.

A simple recognisable mark was of great advantage in a time when much of the population was illiterate - so many larger European edge tool works also used them, athough in France the vast majority just used a name and town, e.g. ALEXIS A ORLEANS....

Tools made and used in the centre, often Alpine, European countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Italy and Hungary - often previously part of the Autsro-Hungarian Empire), often also have decorated blades - which are believed to be symbolic, e.g. to ward off eveil spirits...

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:03 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 07:55 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Italian edge tool makers marks (from Roncole e Pennati by Nani Monnelli)

http://www.ciao.it/Roncole_e_pennat...onelli__1720751

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:04 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 08:01 AM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Note in 15th century Germany the armourer was often also the edge tool maker.... The following illustration of Niclas Schweitzer (Nicolas the Swiss) who died 18 June 1504.

He was an inmate in an almshouse for retired craftsmen in Nuremberg Germany; one of two that each took 12 brothers. The first set up my Konrad Mendel in 1388, the second by Matthew Landauer in 1511. From 1425 until 1806 each brother had his portrait entered into the house-book, often with a portrayal of his craft.

Note the axe and cleaver to the right of his shop window, the spade at the left and the spears in the centre..

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:05 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 04:07 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by Billman
... usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised ... (Quote)

Like in this Portuguese example?

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:11 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 10:19 PM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Yes, although in this case it seems to be decorative rather than for identification (of course it could be both).... Now for the $64,000 question - tool or weapon?? To me it is a very nice early example of a hedging bill - this type is common throughout Europe - I have examples from Wales and France, but they are also found in Spain, Italy and Croatia...

Known in Portugal as a foice, in Spain as a roçadora, in France as a croissant (also a coujard) and in Croatia as a rankun - the shape of the blade varies from region to region, but the back hook to push loose branches back into the hedge is common to all types...

A few illustrations....

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:56 PM

PAGE 7 MISSING. POSTS #181 TO #210

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:57 PM

Old 19th November 2011, 04:06 PM #211

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Good addition Denis .
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19th October 2017, 12:04 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th April 2011, 08:01 AM Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Note in 15th century Germany the armourer was often also the edge tool maker.... The following illustration of Niclas Schweitzer (Nicolas the Swiss) who died 18 June 1504. He was an inmate in an almshouse for retired craftsmen in Nuremberg Germany; one of two that each took 12 brothers. The first set up my Konrad Mendel in 1388, the second by Matthew Landauer in 1511. From 1425 until 1806 each brother had his portrait entered into the house-book, often with a portrayal of his craft. Note the axe and cleaver to the right of his shop window, the spade at the left and the spears in the centre.. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:20 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:05 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th April 2011, 04:07 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Originally Posted by Billman ... usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised ... (Quote) Like in this Portuguese example? . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:10 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:11 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th April 2011, 10:19 PM Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Yes, although in this case it seems to be decorative rather than for identification (of course it could be both).... Now for the $64,000 question - tool or weapon?? To me it is a very nice early example of a hedging bill - this type is common throughout Europe - I have examples from Wales and France, but they are also found in Spain, Italy and Croatia... Known in Portugal as a foice, in Spain as a roçadora, in France as a croissant (also a coujard) and in Croatia as a rankun - the shape of the blade varies from region to region, but the back hook to push loose branches back into the hedge is common to all types... A few illustrations.... (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:21 PM.

19th October 2017, 02:56 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	PAGE 7 MISSING. POSTS #181 TO #210 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 08:18 PM.

19th October 2017, 02:57 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 19th November 2011, 04:06 PM #211 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Good addition Denis . . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 08:19 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:03 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th April 2011, 07:52 AM Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Not being a collector of weapons, but of edged tools, in particular the billhook, I can give some background to this from a different perspective. Early edge tools were made by the individual smith, for local use, and were probably never marked, other than possible decorative or symbolic markings - usually stamped with chisels and serrated gouges. If the smith was one of a group, or had a wider market, then some form of idenification was used - usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised. In the UK iron and steel tools were often marked in the late 18th century and early 19th with three individual letter stamps - forename, surname and location of the smith. Later, c 1830 - 1850, individual word stamps were used, e.g. JOHN, FUSSELL, MELLS - sometimes stamped upside down, or in the wrong order. Edge tool makers were often also cutlers in the larger centres such as Sheffield, and adopted the trade or guild marks on their edge tools as well.. By 1850 machine cut stamps were being used which allowed all the information to be stamped on in one go... Most edge tool makers also used some form of trademark to denote the quality of their tools - the Crown was used by several as a mark of quality (e.g. by Gilpin, Brades and Swift) probably a reference to best Crown Steel as used by scythe and sickle makers. A simple recognisable mark was of great advantage in a time when much of the population was illiterate - so many larger European edge tool works also used them, athough in France the vast majority just used a name and town, e.g. ALEXIS A ORLEANS.... Tools made and used in the centre, often Alpine, European countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Italy and Hungary - often previously part of the Autsro-Hungarian Empire), often also have decorated blades - which are believed to be symbolic, e.g. to ward off eveil spirits... (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:20 PM.