The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:58 AM

Old 26th October 2009, 07:49 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico

I don't know if I understood well, but on the contrary, the wide central fuller 'a dos mesas' in the first two thirds of the blade is common on the spanish military swords from the 18th Century, just see this:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf
.

The number of mesas is the number of 'facets' a blade has in one side of the blade, not counting the fuller. So, the flat diamond shaped blade has two (dos) mesas in one side, and a flat hexagon has tres (three) mesas. Usually, a rapier has a short fuller, and when it ends, you can count the number of mesas. There are flate hexagonal blades without fuller, and they are also tres mesas. But I personally believe this sword from Fernando is technically not a rapier under spanish terms, but a transition form, since it is not a civilian weapon, and the widht and form of the blade does not correspond to a rapier, since is too broad in the beginning (as a good military sword from the period) and very 'triangular' and pointy. I don't think those quillons were only vestigial. They were used also in cup hilted rapiers, and very large, due the needs imposed by the fencing techniques. In this case, the quillons are shorter but I don't think useless.
Regards

Gonzalo

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:00 PM

Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM
Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Gonzalo,
Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort.

Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added.

I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers.
The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords.

The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation.

The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts.

All the best Gonzalo!
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM

Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM

Posted by:
Gonzalo G
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico

You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you.
My best regards

Gonzalo
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM

Old 28th October 2009, 07:46 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

At least i could have the crucifix mark recognized, if still not (yet) identified.
A reputed Catalunian arms dealer has already sold two swords with this mark; both cup hilted and with the same blade inscription. He doesn't know however its origin, although his guess goes for the German provenance.
This is a reasonable guess; zillions of blades were imported from Germany into the peninsula, in a major scale to Spain, in the context. It is also more reasonable to think that blade inscriptions like the one in my example, would be made by German smiths; they were known to fancy writing such phrases in spanish, but couldn't avoid the wrong spellings. I guess there are three errors in the phrase " Min Sinal Hes el Santissimo Crucificio "; and i don't think the reason is that at the time, the orthography of these words was different.

Fernando
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM

Old 29th October 2009, 03:48 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

No problem at all Gonzalo In the text of my ramblings and sometimes my choice of words could be better.

Fernando, as we have found over time, and as you have noted, these blades seem likely Solingen produced products for Spain and Portugal during the 18th century. The broad lettering with these mottos, often misspelled, and the crosses or various marks suggest that much as many of the products, certain blades and markings were meant for certain markets. It seems that for some reason, the examples marked 'SAHAGUM' are often spelled 'SAHAGUN", and these from what I recall, often ended up in the Continent, although I have seen examples Spanish Colonial. I have seen blades with this name in broad lettering with different spellings on either side.
Clearly these are German commercial products as noted.

With this being the case, it would seem the use of this style crucifix cross was intended to appeal to the market(s) for these blades, rather than being associated with a specific unit or group using these swords.

With my personal affection for Spanish/Portuguese colonial weapons, and profound weakness for cuphilts, you gotta know I think this is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:02 PM

Old 28th March 2011, 08:51 PM

Posted by:
napoleon
Member

Join Date: Jan 2011

hello all i was wondering if anyone knows anything about a rose and crown mark on a hunting sword blade.would this be english? regards napoleon
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:02 PM

Old 30th March 2011, 03:25 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hello and welcome to the forum,
Could you possible show a picture of the stamp?
I am not very good with European stamps, but there are other who are, and they may be able to help you.
.

19th October 2017, 11:58 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th October 2009, 07:49 AM Posted by: Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico I don't know if I understood well, but on the contrary, the wide central fuller 'a dos mesas' in the first two thirds of the blade is common on the spanish military swords from the 18th Century, just see this: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf . The number of mesas is the number of 'facets' a blade has in one side of the blade, not counting the fuller. So, the flat diamond shaped blade has two (dos) mesas in one side, and a flat hexagon has tres (three) mesas. Usually, a rapier has a short fuller, and when it ends, you can count the number of mesas. There are flate hexagonal blades without fuller, and they are also tres mesas. But I personally believe this sword from Fernando is technically not a rapier under spanish terms, but a transition form, since it is not a civilian weapon, and the widht and form of the blade does not correspond to a rapier, since is too broad in the beginning (as a good military sword from the period) and very 'triangular' and pointy. I don't think those quillons were only vestigial. They were used also in cup hilted rapiers, and very large, due the needs imposed by the fencing techniques. In this case, the quillons are shorter but I don't think useless. Regards Gonzalo Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:47 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:00 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Gonzalo, Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort. Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added. I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers. The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords. The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation. The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts. All the best Gonzalo! Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:48 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM Posted by: Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you. My best regards Gonzalo . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:49 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:01 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th October 2009, 07:46 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal At least i could have the crucifix mark recognized, if still not (yet) identified. A reputed Catalunian arms dealer has already sold two swords with this mark; both cup hilted and with the same blade inscription. He doesn't know however its origin, although his guess goes for the German provenance. This is a reasonable guess; zillions of blades were imported from Germany into the peninsula, in a major scale to Spain, in the context. It is also more reasonable to think that blade inscriptions like the one in my example, would be made by German smiths; they were known to fancy writing such phrases in spanish, but couldn't avoid the wrong spellings. I guess there are three errors in the phrase " Min Sinal Hes el Santissimo Crucificio "; and i don't think the reason is that at the time, the orthography of these words was different. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:50 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:01 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th October 2009, 03:48 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 No problem at all Gonzalo In the text of my ramblings and sometimes my choice of words could be better. Fernando, as we have found over time, and as you have noted, these blades seem likely Solingen produced products for Spain and Portugal during the 18th century. The broad lettering with these mottos, often misspelled, and the crosses or various marks suggest that much as many of the products, certain blades and markings were meant for certain markets. It seems that for some reason, the examples marked 'SAHAGUM' are often spelled 'SAHAGUN", and these from what I recall, often ended up in the Continent, although I have seen examples Spanish Colonial. I have seen blades with this name in broad lettering with different spellings on either side. Clearly these are German commercial products as noted. With this being the case, it would seem the use of this style crucifix cross was intended to appeal to the market(s) for these blades, rather than being associated with a specific unit or group using these swords. With my personal affection for Spanish/Portuguese colonial weapons, and profound weakness for cuphilts, you gotta know I think this is a beauty!! All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:51 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:02 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	rose and crown mark Old 28th March 2011, 08:51 PM Posted by: napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 hello all i was wondering if anyone knows anything about a rose and crown mark on a hunting sword blade.would this be english? regards napoleon . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:51 PM.