The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:48 AM

Old 19th October 2009, 07:31 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Fernando, this is a fantastic good solid arming cuphilt, and you know my weakness for these beauties!!!
Norman, excellent observations on that 'Apostolic cross' and very plausible thoughts on its application.
While these type markings were often associated with the blades of certain makers, it does seem, as thoroughly discussed over years, that they were applied in more of a talismanic sense in many cases. In the placing on this, it does seem that a device used by a specific group might be possible.

Clearly, the cuphilt rapier was well established in both Portugal and Spain at some time early in the 17th century, though many of these, were produced also in Spain's provinces in Italy. The thin, thrusting blade rapiers were used well into the 18th century in traditional application in Spain, but by the mid to latter 18th century the cuphilt had extended into the military sector, especially in Spain's colonies.

When I first saw this beautifully aged cuphilt, my first thought was that it was a colonial example, and though familiar with the 'Caribbean' or Spanish forms, its provenance to Portugal suggested possibly South America.
This seems to be one of the 'arming' type examples of probably third quarter 18th century, and the blade appears to be of the military type produced usually in Solingen in that time. The style of lettering in the inscription and the blade itself resembles the familiar Spanish 'dragoon' blades of 1770's with the 'Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. inscription.

Interesting is the rolled edge of the cup, which vestigially represents the 'rompepuntas' of the early cuphilts which were intended ostensibly to catch the thin rapier blade of the opponent. These are not seen on colonially produced cuphilts of this period, and interesting to be seen in this application more as a finished appearance feature. The style of the grips are also a latter 18th-early 19th century affectation often seen on Spanish colonial swords with dual coloring. The lined elements on the quillons and knucklebow also resemble Spanish military swords of this period.

Thank you so much Fernando!! and good observations Norman.
I hope we can keep moving on this to see more on the interesting marking and what it might signify, and more on the inscription...would this be compared to any others particularly Portuguese?

All best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:49 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 05:21 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Addendum:
Further research on the notes for this interesting crucifix marking.
Most of the markings attributed to the German smiths were actually cross and orb rather than crucifix, such as Heinrich Coll, and from I understand, these were affectations added with inscriptions, names or invocations. I am not sure about markings by Pedro Hernandez, nor the crucifix seen on the blade by Cleles.

The form of cross seen here is most interesting and it seems that the cross with the normal sized patibulum (main cross beam) as well as the smaller upper beam (titulus) is indeed an apostolic cross as used in Hungary. It is also known as the Patriarchal cross.

In this case, the cross in Patriarchal form, as crucifix, is known in Spain as the Caravaca Cross, and is associated with a miracle in the southeast Spanish town of Caravaca de la Cruz. The cross is most typically flanked by two angels, who in the miraculous event c.1231 carried a cross comprised of part of the True Cross. There were indeed associations with the Knights Templar during the 15th century when they occupied this town.

Apparantly, this cross is often employed in a talismanic or amuletic sense, and is noted as often seen in Central and South America as such, as a good luck device. It would seem that this would correspond with Portuguese colonial presence in these regions and the Portuguese provenance as well as the fact that this does seem a colonial America's weapon from latter 18th c.

It is well known of course that there are a number of fraternal societies and groups with profound associations to Masonic lineage, and often less clearly to the Knights Templar, so perhaps this weapon might have belonged to a military officer in the colonial regions with these associations.

I also found a note in "An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" (Auguste Demmin, tranl. C.C.Black, 1901 ed. p.577) which illustrates a cross with two same sized patibulum (beams) and is noted as a mark supposed to have been on blades of Crusaders who had swords either made or stamped at Jerusalem. Demmin notes that he found a sword with such mark in the arsenal at Berlin, with hilt which suggested it was of 16th century. Perhaps the shape of the cross, if it does indeed correspond to the graphic without the vertical beam beyond the upper crossbeam, might be associated to this.

Hope this additional information might be useful, and adds to the outstanding mystique of this wonderful military cuphilt, which seems quite possibly of Portuguese provenance to probably South America.

All best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:50 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 01:20 PM

Posted by:
Dmitry
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009

From what I've seen of these, they are described as the Caribbean rapiers. Dating to the second half of 18th century looks right, unless the mark proves otherwise.
,

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:50 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 04:39 PM

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

When I first saw this, I thought also of the 'Caribbean' versions of cup hilt rapier, as described by Peterson and Brickerhoff/Chamberlain, and are as previously noted, basically military 'arming' versions of the traditional cuphilt.
However, this example has more refined, though heavy, styling carrying the vestigial elements such as the rompepuntas.

The term 'Caribbean' seems to have become somewhat misaligned as these are actually 'colonial' as thier use and apparantly their production appear to have been widespread far beyond that sphere.
The dual colored grip is similar to those seen on Spanish colonial hilts on a number of edged weapons typically of latter 18th into early 19th. I have an example of court type sword of probably 1820's Mexico with this type of horn/ivory type grip. In style it is also with neoclassic style elements that are often seemingly incongruent, such as vestigial quillon arms placed reduntantly under a dish guard.

The mark truly is intriguing, and I think is likely associated in some way to an officer, probably with interest or membership in a group in league with the numerous fraternal or perhaps some Masonic presence. Also, it would seem that the use of the Caravaca Cross, with South American prevalence mentioned may have some bearing on its presumed colonial provenance.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:50 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 06:36 PM

Posted :
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA

Hi Guys,

The central wide fuller makes the blade distinctly different to the "a dos mesas" type, so characteristic of iberian battle-swords in the 17-18th Cs.

I have seen such fullers in swedish, german and belgian blades.

The grip is a later replacement, its type was often seen in Spanish colonies from Filipinas to America.. Incidentally, the blade is too heavy for the pommel's size.

The motto is either galician or portuguese, most likely the latter.

Very good condition overall, congrats Ferd!
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:52 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 07:20 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent observations Manolo!!!
Could you please say more on the term 'dos mesas' ? I am unfamiliar with that particular term and would like to know more. I agree with the cross section of the blade resembling the Solingen type productions of c.1760's with the 'Spanish motto' often found on 'dragoon' swords.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:52 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 08:33 PM

Posted by:
celtan
Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA

You mean the "No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor" ?

The " a dos mesas" is roughly a flat hexagonal cross cut blade.

Jim, I'm afraid I must eat crow: checked my database of old Iberian blades, and saw several with the central wide fuller...

Drat! I'm fallible after all....

Or am I? Perhaps I was just testing you.

Yeah, that's it, just testing you...

: )

Manolo, you rascal!! LOL!! Thats OK, I need testing, besides eating crow is often part of my regimen and I do it a lot
Thank you for the info on 'dos mesas' is the hexagonal blade which I always call the dragoon blade (from certain references) and indeed often with the No me saques sin Razon motto.

All the best,
Jim
.

19th October 2017, 11:48 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 19th October 2009, 07:31 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Fernando, this is a fantastic good solid arming cuphilt, and you know my weakness for these beauties!!! Norman, excellent observations on that 'Apostolic cross' and very plausible thoughts on its application. While these type markings were often associated with the blades of certain makers, it does seem, as thoroughly discussed over years, that they were applied in more of a talismanic sense in many cases. In the placing on this, it does seem that a device used by a specific group might be possible. Clearly, the cuphilt rapier was well established in both Portugal and Spain at some time early in the 17th century, though many of these, were produced also in Spain's provinces in Italy. The thin, thrusting blade rapiers were used well into the 18th century in traditional application in Spain, but by the mid to latter 18th century the cuphilt had extended into the military sector, especially in Spain's colonies. When I first saw this beautifully aged cuphilt, my first thought was that it was a colonial example, and though familiar with the 'Caribbean' or Spanish forms, its provenance to Portugal suggested possibly South America. This seems to be one of the 'arming' type examples of probably third quarter 18th century, and the blade appears to be of the military type produced usually in Solingen in that time. The style of lettering in the inscription and the blade itself resembles the familiar Spanish 'dragoon' blades of 1770's with the 'Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. inscription. Interesting is the rolled edge of the cup, which vestigially represents the 'rompepuntas' of the early cuphilts which were intended ostensibly to catch the thin rapier blade of the opponent. These are not seen on colonially produced cuphilts of this period, and interesting to be seen in this application more as a finished appearance feature. The style of the grips are also a latter 18th-early 19th century affectation often seen on Spanish colonial swords with dual coloring. The lined elements on the quillons and knucklebow also resemble Spanish military swords of this period. Thank you so much Fernando!! and good observations Norman. I hope we can keep moving on this to see more on the interesting marking and what it might signify, and more on the inscription...would this be compared to any others particularly Portuguese? All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:36 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:49 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th October 2009, 05:21 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Addendum: Further research on the notes for this interesting crucifix marking. Most of the markings attributed to the German smiths were actually cross and orb rather than crucifix, such as Heinrich Coll, and from I understand, these were affectations added with inscriptions, names or invocations. I am not sure about markings by Pedro Hernandez, nor the crucifix seen on the blade by Cleles. The form of cross seen here is most interesting and it seems that the cross with the normal sized patibulum (main cross beam) as well as the smaller upper beam (titulus) is indeed an apostolic cross as used in Hungary. It is also known as the Patriarchal cross. In this case, the cross in Patriarchal form, as crucifix, is known in Spain as the Caravaca Cross, and is associated with a miracle in the southeast Spanish town of Caravaca de la Cruz. The cross is most typically flanked by two angels, who in the miraculous event c.1231 carried a cross comprised of part of the True Cross. There were indeed associations with the Knights Templar during the 15th century when they occupied this town. Apparantly, this cross is often employed in a talismanic or amuletic sense, and is noted as often seen in Central and South America as such, as a good luck device. It would seem that this would correspond with Portuguese colonial presence in these regions and the Portuguese provenance as well as the fact that this does seem a colonial America's weapon from latter 18th c. It is well known of course that there are a number of fraternal societies and groups with profound associations to Masonic lineage, and often less clearly to the Knights Templar, so perhaps this weapon might have belonged to a military officer in the colonial regions with these associations. I also found a note in "An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" (Auguste Demmin, tranl. C.C.Black, 1901 ed. p.577) which illustrates a cross with two same sized patibulum (beams) and is noted as a mark supposed to have been on blades of Crusaders who had swords either made or stamped at Jerusalem. Demmin notes that he found a sword with such mark in the arsenal at Berlin, with hilt which suggested it was of 16th century. Perhaps the shape of the cross, if it does indeed correspond to the graphic without the vertical beam beyond the upper crossbeam, might be associated to this. Hope this additional information might be useful, and adds to the outstanding mystique of this wonderful military cuphilt, which seems quite possibly of Portuguese provenance to probably South America. All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:37 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:50 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th October 2009, 01:20 PM Posted by: Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 From what I've seen of these, they are described as the Caribbean rapiers. Dating to the second half of 18th century looks right, unless the mark proves otherwise. , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:38 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:50 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th October 2009, 04:39 PM Posted by. Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 When I first saw this, I thought also of the 'Caribbean' versions of cup hilt rapier, as described by Peterson and Brickerhoff/Chamberlain, and are as previously noted, basically military 'arming' versions of the traditional cuphilt. However, this example has more refined, though heavy, styling carrying the vestigial elements such as the rompepuntas. The term 'Caribbean' seems to have become somewhat misaligned as these are actually 'colonial' as thier use and apparantly their production appear to have been widespread far beyond that sphere. The dual colored grip is similar to those seen on Spanish colonial hilts on a number of edged weapons typically of latter 18th into early 19th. I have an example of court type sword of probably 1820's Mexico with this type of horn/ivory type grip. In style it is also with neoclassic style elements that are often seemingly incongruent, such as vestigial quillon arms placed reduntantly under a dish guard. The mark truly is intriguing, and I think is likely associated in some way to an officer, probably with interest or membership in a group in league with the numerous fraternal or perhaps some Masonic presence. Also, it would seem that the use of the Caravaca Cross, with South American prevalence mentioned may have some bearing on its presumed colonial provenance. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:39 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:50 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th October 2009, 06:36 PM Posted : celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Hi Guys, The central wide fuller makes the blade distinctly different to the "a dos mesas" type, so characteristic of iberian battle-swords in the 17-18th Cs. I have seen such fullers in swedish, german and belgian blades. The grip is a later replacement, its type was often seen in Spanish colonies from Filipinas to America.. Incidentally, the blade is too heavy for the pommel's size. The motto is either galician or portuguese, most likely the latter. Very good condition overall, congrats Ferd! . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:40 PM.

19th October 2017, 11:52 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th October 2009, 07:20 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Excellent observations Manolo!!! Could you please say more on the term 'dos mesas' ? I am unfamiliar with that particular term and would like to know more. I agree with the cross section of the blade resembling the Solingen type productions of c.1760's with the 'Spanish motto' often found on 'dragoon' swords. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:40 PM.