The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 6th May 2009, 09:45 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


I am a bit too lazy to check if these tables were alredy posted here so, just in case, i post them now.
Not much harm if they are already here, somewhere
Fernando
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Attached Images

[fernando]

Old 18th September 2009, 09:58 AM

Posted by:
buendia
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Silesia, Poland

Who can identify these marks?

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[fernando]

Old 18th September 2009, 03:01 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thanks for posting that Buendia! Its nice to see a posting on this trusty old thread
I'm curious about which book this table of markings is from, it is often helpful to know which context these references are in, as well as which language. Does the book make mention of the authors thoughts on the markings?

These are of course markings applied to trade blades, believed to have originated with trade guilds in Northern Italy, they are typically associated with Genoa, and as you can see that name is often used within the marks.
Genoan blades traded heavily to the north in colonial activity in the Black Sea as well as of course throughout the Meditteranean.
The usually dentated half circles are known as 'sickle marks' most often, though referred to my many other terms including eyelashes or even in some cases hogsbacks.
The 'Frindia' or 'Fringia' marks seem to derive from 16th-17th century application, perhaps sometimes later, usually in East European cases and there has been considerable debate on the word(s) which seem to be an acronym or phrase using first letters. It is often seen, as are the 'sickle' marks on Styrian blades, as well as certain other centers. Solingen began copying the marks, though often bracketing other marks inside them, especially the famed ANDREA FERARA, typically seen on blades for the Scottish market.

Thanks again Buendia, its always good to see interest in pursuing these fascinating markings and thier associations and application.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 18th October 2009, 07:04 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Definitely i don't reach full control of my new digital camera ... or perhaps is the camera that is no so good.
This sword is, i would say, from the XVII century. Judging by the width of its blade (4 cms) and fixation of the knuckle guard to the pommel, it would be a military weapon.
Its blade measures 80 cms. and is rather thin, which makes this a light handy sword, with 950 grams.
It bears along the fullers one of these traditional religious inscriptions 'MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO' (my sign ((symbol)) is the holly crucifix).
In both sides of the ricasso it has a punction of its smith; although we can discern a crucified christ, the cross is not a plain one. Also its top seems to have some kind of efect, which is almost imossible to figure out, due to its position under the langets.
The crucifix was a mark practiced by various smiths, like the German Hannes Cleles and Heinrich Koel (known as Coll) and the Toledan Pedro Hernandez, but i suspect there were more variations on this mark theme.
The exact provenance of this type of swords is often undistinguished and so called Iberian or Peninsular but, due to the system of its cup fixation, welded instead of screwed, may well be Portuguese ... not taking into account that until the mid XVII century Portugal was under controll of the Spanish Philipes, and contemporary weaponry fashions were an assumed mix.
It was acquired in a Portuguese mannor house, anyway.
Fernando

I wonder if anyone here has ever seen these smith marks ?!

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[fernando]

Old 18th October 2009, 07:05 PM
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Some more picures ...

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[fernando]

Old 18th October 2009, 08:03 PM

Posted by:
Norman McCormick
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007


Hi Fernando,
I really like your new acquisition. The attached photo is of a mark attributed to Hannes Cleles and is obviously different from the one on your sword. The 'Apostolic Cross' has been used by a few countries e.g. Hungary and within the Roman Church is associated specifically with the office of Cardinal. I wonder if it is possible that it is not a makers mark but a mark denoting that it belongs to or was made for a specific group e.g. Cardinals guard. Just thinking out loud. Regardless of who or what it's a great sword.
My Regards,
Norman

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[fernando]

Old 19th October 2009, 07:31 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Fernando, this is a fantastic good solid arming cuphilt, and you know my weakness for these beauties!!!
Norman, excellent observations on that 'Apostolic cross' and very plausible thoughts on its application.
While these type markings were often associated with the blades of certain makers, it does seem, as thoroughly discussed over years, that they were applied in more of a talismanic sense in many cases. In the placing on this, it does seem that a device used by a specific group might be possible.

Clearly, the cuphilt rapier was well established in both Portugal and Spain at some time early in the 17th century, though many of these, were produced also in Spain's provinces in Italy. The thin, thrusting blade rapiers were used well into the 18th century in traditional application in Spain, but by the mid to latter 18th century the cuphilt had extended into the military sector, especially in Spain's colonies.

When I first saw this beautifully aged cuphilt, my first thought was that it was a colonial example, and though familiar with the 'Caribbean' or Spanish forms, its provenance to Portugal suggested possibly South America.
This seems to be one of the 'arming' type examples of probably third quarter 18th century, and the blade appears to be of the military type produced usually in Solingen in that time. The style of lettering in the inscription and the blade itself resembles the familiar Spanish 'dragoon' blades of 1770's with the 'Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. inscription.

Interesting is the rolled edge of the cup, which vestigially represents the 'rompepuntas' of the early cuphilts which were intended ostensibly to catch the thin rapier blade of the opponent. These are not seen on colonially produced cuphilts of this period, and interesting to be seen in this application more as a finished appearance feature. The style of the grips are also a latter 18th-early 19th century affectation often seen on Spanish colonial swords with dual coloring. The lined elements on the quillons and knucklebow also resemble Spanish military swords of this period.

Thank you so much Fernando!! and good observations Norman.
I hope we can keep moving on this to see more on the interesting marking and what it might signify, and more on the inscription...would this be compared to any others particularly Portuguese?

All best regards,
Jim
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