The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:14 PM

Old 20th December 2007, 10:20 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Eljay , its so good to have you join in on this! Your knowledge and experience in these early European blades is well established and I really do appreciate your insight into some of these puzzling topics.

The so called anchor marks it seems, for some time were regarded by many as simply flourishes in the decorative motif on these early blades. As we have discussed, there were often cryptic anagrams, and coded wording and phrases applied on many blades carrying either patriotic or talismanic meanings, so equally imbued motif such as these multibar cross devices seem well placed.
I think that as you note, the religious symbolism may have been key in the Spanish applications, but possibly many of these might have been closely tied to the merchant marks prevalent from late 16th c. onward. Possibly these may have been the source for the term anchor.
As you note, there were German makers who used nautical devices such as the anchor, having nothing to do with maritime themes. I recall it seems, a sextant like device also.

Your point on the use of IHN is well placed as well, and it does seem that the phonetics might be used in the constant transliterations and variations in spellings. I have seen German made blades with the same Spanish name on opposite faces of the blade, each spelled differently. Possibly the maker tried to make the inscription appear more Latin? or religious? Possibly the same concept in abbreviated version of the Latin phrase as you note, INI MINI which makes sense, but still think maybe the MENE spelling might have other possibilities.

A question on East India Company marks, it seems the typically quadranted heart with the company initials VEIC does appear on bayonet blades of the 18th c. as well as firearms, but I havent ever seen it on a sword blade, have you? On the Dutch EIC the VOC does appear on hanger blades of the 18th century (I've only ever seen them on kastanes) but it seems they invariably have the year 1768 or close to that. Have you encountered swords with the VOC on the blade?

On the crosses/anchors it would be great if we could find some that distinctly appear with makers names so maybe we could associate?

Thank you again Eljay. I know you're busy and having you here on what is developing into a resource that will hopefully help us all in better understanding and recognizing these marks, is very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:15 PM

Old 23rd December 2007, 07:01 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

IN NOMINE DOMINE = In the name of the Lord.
For reasons connected with the evolution of the sword, during the XII century, as blades acquired a certain form, the spiritual and religious sense of the Knights ( Cruzaders ) caused the frequent appearance of certain phrases, as also or together with the inclusion of names of sword smiths, which had already been practised during the XI century, namely in the Solingen area.
Explicit phrases like IN NOMINE DOMINI, HOMO DEI ( man of God ), or BENEDICTUS DEUS MES ( My blessed God ), as also initials like NEDRC NEDRU (Nomine Eterni Dei Regis Caeli/Universi), or BOAC (Beati Omnipotensque Angeli Christi), would give place to composite situations like IN NOMINE DOMINE/CICE LINE ME FECIT, Cice Line naturaly being the smith.
Amazingly this type of inscriptions was seen firstly in central Europe and specially England, and only after it gained intensity in Spain, round the XIV century.
https://calderobruja.wordpress.com/2...la-edad-media/
I would therefore infer that later expressions like IN MENE, IHN MINI and the like, are no more than corruptions of IN DOMINE DOMINI.
Concerning the sugestion that the symbols resembling anchors are after all decorated crosses, could well be true, though a bit hard to swallow. Maybe some further evidence comes to light, one of these days.
All the best
Fernando.
,

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:15 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM

Posted by:
Dom
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)

Hi every body

just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present

source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992)

à +

Dom

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:16 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM

Posted by.
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts!

I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6
'
Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality.
The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality.

I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc...
These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...)

All the Best
.
Jeff

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau

INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum"
IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol?
MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Rick,

I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before.

All the Best
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Katana,

Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life.

All the Best
Jeff

(missing attachments)
.

18th October 2017, 07:14 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 20th December 2007, 10:20 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Eljay , its so good to have you join in on this! Your knowledge and experience in these early European blades is well established and I really do appreciate your insight into some of these puzzling topics. The so called anchor marks it seems, for some time were regarded by many as simply flourishes in the decorative motif on these early blades. As we have discussed, there were often cryptic anagrams, and coded wording and phrases applied on many blades carrying either patriotic or talismanic meanings, so equally imbued motif such as these multibar cross devices seem well placed. I think that as you note, the religious symbolism may have been key in the Spanish applications, but possibly many of these might have been closely tied to the merchant marks prevalent from late 16th c. onward. Possibly these may have been the source for the term anchor. As you note, there were German makers who used nautical devices such as the anchor, having nothing to do with maritime themes. I recall it seems, a sextant like device also. Your point on the use of IHN is well placed as well, and it does seem that the phonetics might be used in the constant transliterations and variations in spellings. I have seen German made blades with the same Spanish name on opposite faces of the blade, each spelled differently. Possibly the maker tried to make the inscription appear more Latin? or religious? Possibly the same concept in abbreviated version of the Latin phrase as you note, INI MINI which makes sense, but still think maybe the MENE spelling might have other possibilities. A question on East India Company marks, it seems the typically quadranted heart with the company initials VEIC does appear on bayonet blades of the 18th c. as well as firearms, but I havent ever seen it on a sword blade, have you? On the Dutch EIC the VOC does appear on hanger blades of the 18th century (I've only ever seen them on kastanes) but it seems they invariably have the year 1768 or close to that. Have you encountered swords with the VOC on the blade? On the crosses/anchors it would be great if we could find some that distinctly appear with makers names so maybe we could associate? Thank you again Eljay. I know you're busy and having you here on what is developing into a resource that will hopefully help us all in better understanding and recognizing these marks, is very much appreciated. All the very best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:39 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:15 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Eureka ? Old 23rd December 2007, 07:01 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal IN NOMINE DOMINE = In the name of the Lord. For reasons connected with the evolution of the sword, during the XII century, as blades acquired a certain form, the spiritual and religious sense of the Knights ( Cruzaders ) caused the frequent appearance of certain phrases, as also or together with the inclusion of names of sword smiths, which had already been practised during the XI century, namely in the Solingen area. Explicit phrases like IN NOMINE DOMINI, HOMO DEI ( man of God ), or BENEDICTUS DEUS MES ( My blessed God ), as also initials like NEDRC NEDRU (Nomine Eterni Dei Regis Caeli/Universi), or BOAC (Beati Omnipotensque Angeli Christi), would give place to composite situations like IN NOMINE DOMINE/CICE LINE ME FECIT, Cice Line naturaly being the smith. Amazingly this type of inscriptions was seen firstly in central Europe and specially England, and only after it gained intensity in Spain, round the XIV century. https://calderobruja.wordpress.com/2...la-edad-media/ I would therefore infer that later expressions like IN MENE, IHN MINI and the like, are no more than corruptions of IN DOMINE DOMINI. Concerning the sugestion that the symbols resembling anchors are after all decorated crosses, could well be true, though a bit hard to swallow. Maybe some further evidence comes to light, one of these days. All the best Fernando. , Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:30 PM.

18th October 2017, 07:15 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM Posted by: Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR) Cairo (EG) Hi every body just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992) à + Dom (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:13 PM.*

18th October 2017, 07:16 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM Posted by. Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts! I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6 ' Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality. The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality. I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc... These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...) All the Best . Jeff Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:42 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum" IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol? MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:43 AM.