The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:54 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:13 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Amazing how far down the thread moved in one day!!!
Although it seems there is apparantly not much interest in markings and inscriptions on trade blades, despite the fact that as I have mentioned the questions do come up from time to time, but there is perspective I would add to perhaps attract the attention of readers and members.
While most of the emphasis, especially lately on threads here,has been on SEA weapons, Indonesian and Filipino, it may be prove interesting to note that European blades do show up on numbers of weapons in these spheres. I have seen a weapon, I believe classified as a lombok, mounted with an 18th century German, possibly Dutch blade. It seems that piso podang are sometimes ? mounted with European trade blades though I think many are Indian, Persian or Caucasian.
The fact that the Sinhalese kastane is often mounted with European hanger blades, it seems almost exclusively is most interesting, since much of the high grade steel used in India was forged there and exported. The most interesting of the kastane blades are the examples found with Dutch East India Company markings (Mikey....back!! back! I say...no shaver kool here!!!

Perhaps any of the readers or collectors specializing in SEA or Indonesia, Philippines might share observations on trade blades they have seen...share examples?

Rick, have Moro weapons ever been seen with European blades? I have seen discussions of talismanic markings on some of these, any with possible associations to European markings?

I really think the subject matter here is worthwhile, and will prove most interesting and helpful if developed with the participation of those in the spectrum of fields of study well presented in our forum.

I will add a note to my previous discussion on the three cross markings, as my research continues, and I will continue to share my findings. In the Wallace Collection, there is a German 'executioners sword' c.1500 which is engraved with three crosses. It seems to me that this three cross mark has appeared on other examples of these grim weapons elsewhere as well. Obviously the religious connotation prevails here, and the suggestion has to do with the salvation of the criminal ? or along that line.

Any thoughts or ideas? Still looking for other instances of triple cross markings as seen on Zanzibar sa'if's.....anybody seen them on any other blades?

All best regards,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:55 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:12 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:55 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:35 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

This is taken from Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie 1885 ed. Pg 18

18-32 were located in the Dresden Museum. 32 was attributed to Johannes Wundes

Jeff

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More Wolves from Cronau...
2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal
3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel
4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection
6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490
7. A Dresden sword c. 1559
8.-15. more developed wolf figures
16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit'

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Now, that's really something, Jeff
Fernando

,

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Very good Jeff, thank you very much.
Jens

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:57 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens!

Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau?

The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade!

I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c.

Jeff,
Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base.

Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations!

All very best wishes,
Jim

.

18th October 2017, 05:54 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 12:13 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Amazing how far down the thread moved in one day!!! Although it seems there is apparantly not much interest in markings and inscriptions on trade blades, despite the fact that as I have mentioned the questions do come up from time to time, but there is perspective I would add to perhaps attract the attention of readers and members. While most of the emphasis, especially lately on threads here,has been on SEA weapons, Indonesian and Filipino, it may be prove interesting to note that European blades do show up on numbers of weapons in these spheres. I have seen a weapon, I believe classified as a lombok, mounted with an 18th century German, possibly Dutch blade. It seems that piso podang are sometimes ? mounted with European trade blades though I think many are Indian, Persian or Caucasian. The fact that the Sinhalese kastane is often mounted with European hanger blades, it seems almost exclusively is most interesting, since much of the high grade steel used in India was forged there and exported. The most interesting of the kastane blades are the examples found with Dutch East India Company markings (Mikey....back!! back! I say...no shaver kool here!!! Perhaps any of the readers or collectors specializing in SEA or Indonesia, Philippines might share observations on trade blades they have seen...share examples? Rick, have Moro weapons ever been seen with European blades? I have seen discussions of talismanic markings on some of these, any with possible associations to European markings? I really think the subject matter here is worthwhile, and will prove most interesting and helpful if developed with the participation of those in the spectrum of fields of study well presented in our forum. I will add a note to my previous discussion on the three cross markings, as my research continues, and I will continue to share my findings. In the Wallace Collection, there is a German 'executioners sword' c.1500 which is engraved with three crosses. It seems to me that this three cross mark has appeared on other examples of these grim weapons elsewhere as well. Obviously the religious connotation prevails here, and the suggestion has to do with the salvation of the criminal ? or along that line. Any thoughts or ideas? Still looking for other instances of triple cross markings as seen on Zanzibar sa'if's.....anybody seen them on any other blades? All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:21 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:55 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 05:12 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Jim, How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added. Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:22 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:55 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 05:35 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada This is taken from Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie 1885 ed. Pg 18 18-32 were located in the Dresden Museum. 32 was attributed to Johannes Wundes Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:23 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada More Wolves from Cronau... 2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal 3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel 4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection 6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490 7. A Dresden sword c. 1559 8.-15. more developed wolf figures 16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit' . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:24 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Now, that's really something, Jeff Fernando , Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:25 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:57 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens! Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau? The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade! I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c. Jeff, Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base. Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations! All very best wishes, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:26 PM.