Destroying artwork

David · 16th May 2016, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylektis

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ivory-poaching
"Philippe Martin the minister for ecology, durable development and energy, added that all ivory seized in France in future would be destroyed, apart from samples kept for scientific or educational purposes and those items that might help trace traffickers."

It looks like the vast majority of what is being destroyed in this article is recently poached raw ivory with a few statues and such made from it, not antiques that hold a cultural, anthropological or archeological value beyond the materials. I believe as collectors it is the latter we should place our attention on with the intent of creating exceptions to the laws in the case of pre-CITES or antique ivory. I seems it would be a losing battle to try to sway these authorities from this kind of destruction of obviously poached ivory and frankly i don't have a issue with that per se. It is the culturally valuable antiques that i don't want to see destroyed and i believe we have a logical and supportable case to be made for the protection of such specimens from destruction.

VANDOO · 16th May 2016, 10:47 PM

THERE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN NO PROVISION FOR OR CONSIDERATION GIVEN TO REGISTERING PRE- BAN IVORY ITEMS TO MAKE THEM LEGAL AND EXEMPT FROM DESTRUCTION. THIS SHOULD BE A EASY AND INEXPENSIVE PROCESS BUT SELDOM IS AND OFTEN IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING SUCH BANNED ITEMS AND IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THE ITEMS WILL NOT BE CONFISCATED TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE. THERE ARE ALREADY PLENTY OF CITES LAWS ON THE BOOKS ALLOWING THE RAIDING AND CONFISCATION OF VARIOUS ITEMS FROM PERSONAL COLLECTIONS AND BUSINESSES THAT CAN BE APPLIED. THESE LAWS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL FAIRLY WITH THE CITIZEN WHO IS CONSIDERED THE ENEMY BUT TO PUNISH AND MAKE AN EXAMPLE WHEN EVER POSSIBLE.
IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AS NO ELEPHANTS ARE SAVED THRU SUCH ACTS AND ART IS OFTEN DESTROYED. COLLECTORS AND DEALERS MAY LOSE MILLIONS ON ANTIQUES WHICH SHOULD BE LEGAL. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF A RARE RESOURCE ARE DESTROYED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO COMBAT POACHING WHILE ASKING FOR DONATIONS TO FIGHT POACHING AND SAVE THE ELEPHANTS. IT IS LIKELY THE MONEY USED TO FUND THE ORGANIZATIONS WILL EXCEED THAT ACTUALLY USED TO SAVE ELEPHANTS HABITAT OR FROM POACHING.
I TIE UP MY MONEY AND TAKE CARE OF THE THINGS I LIKE AND COLLECT FOR YEARS AND HOPE TO RECOUP MY MONEY BY SELLING THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL DO THE SAME AT SOME TIME IN MY LIFE. FOR SUCH A COLLECTION TO LOSE ALL ITS VALUE AND TO DENY ANY POSSIBILITY OF PRESERVING AND PASSING IT ON DUE TO GOVERNMENT REGULATION IS EVIL. ITS ONLY LOGICAL TO DO THINGS THIS WAY IF IT IS INTENDED TO BE EVIL.

Bob A · 16th May 2016, 10:56 PM

The first step would seem to be to inquire if there are other groups involved in re-working the restrictions on antique ivory. (Musicians come to mind, as I understand the bits of old ivory on such items as violin bows have created difficulties for professional orchestras considering international travel).

If anyone is aware of such activity, this might be a good place to post information, as we marshal our forces toward some sort of reasonable solution.

I think VANDOO's idea of creating some sort of registry, while cumbersome and intrusive in the extreme, might work as an interim concept.

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2016, 11:32 PM

In many countries across the board firearms registration is required. This sometimes becomes ridiculous to the point of idiocy, for instance, in NSW, Australia, it is required to register and possess a licence to use, a child's BB gun.

History demonstrates that frequently registration of those things not favoured by ruling entities is a precursor to seizure.

The problem is that this business of ivory seizure is only a symptom of the overall changes in societal values, values that many of us, myself included, have a great deal of difficulty in accepting as either desirable or legitimate.

The fact that these societal changes have been accepted by an overwhelming percentage of the populace in countries that subscribe to the current form of Western Democracy has only been made possible by social engineering.

It is not possible to reason with fanatics. These anti-ivory beings are not logical people, they subscribe to a system of belief that in many of its aspects is immoral, rotten, and undermines the very fabric of a just and moderate society.

Certainly it is always best to try to win any conflict without actually getting involved in a fight, but when one is dealing with people who live in accordance with a belief system that in many of its philosophies parallels a religious belief, one must question if it is possible to defeat these beings without drawing a little blood? (figuratively speaking, of course)

For those who are directly affected by these obnoxious imitations of humanity and the edicts that they have generated, perhaps the writings of Sun Tzu may be of use.

estcrh · 17th May 2016, 12:04 AM

Basically, if you live in the US, your ivory hilted and inlaid weapons are not legal to sell or transport, you would have to get a permit which in most cases would be impossible from what I am reading. Anyone have a different opinion. Soon European countries may inact the same or similar total bans, then what?

http://www.fws.gov/international/tra...nswers.html#27

http://www.fws.gov/policy/do210A1.pdf

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-201...2015-18487.pdf

Bob A · 17th May 2016, 12:58 AM

The Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences has a website that seems to track individual state laws regarding ivory. The definition of what comprises "ivory" has been expanded to an otherwise ridiculous extent (if it were not for its state of origin) in California.

http://www.aaps-journal.org/Fossil-I...gislation.html

Governments have gotten way out of hand.

The firearms restrictions mentioned by Alan are in effect to some degree even in firearm-friendly USA, notably in CA, NY, NJ, MA and MD, which states are noteworthy in their crusade against ivory ownership. Elsewhere, as forces of PC activism have managed to roil the waters regarding police maintenance of social order, restrictions have been eased by a remarkable extent, as the populace acts to take up arms while it is still possible to do so. This gives me hope that the pendulum is swinging back toward a more rational worldview overall. It may take a generation or so to do so, of course.

Meanwhile, hold your politically incorrect antique artifacts closely, transfer them by inheritance, which is currently about the only legal course, and locate all those receipts which you kept since the 1970s.

It may be too early to contemplate the maxims of Sun Tzu, but it seems that only those of us of a certain advanced age recall the relative freedoms which we enjoyed in our youth. It may be that we will be called upon to attempt their reinstatement.

estcrh · 17th May 2016, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Meanwhile, hold your politically incorrect antique artifacts closely, transfer them by inheritance, which is currently about the only legal course, and locate all those receipts which you kept since the 1970s.

Bob, inheritance does not give the current owner any rights as far as I can see until you do some further proving of the inherited item....there is no excape except for a few determined individuals who just happen to have the rare proof needed to be granted an exemption.

16th May 2016, 11:32 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In many countries across the board firearms registration is required. This sometimes becomes ridiculous to the point of idiocy, for instance, in NSW, Australia, it is required to register and possess a licence to use, a child's BB gun. History demonstrates that frequently registration of those things not favoured by ruling entities is a precursor to seizure. The problem is that this business of ivory seizure is only a symptom of the overall changes in societal values, values that many of us, myself included, have a great deal of difficulty in accepting as either desirable or legitimate. The fact that these societal changes have been accepted by an overwhelming percentage of the populace in countries that subscribe to the current form of Western Democracy has only been made possible by social engineering. It is not possible to reason with fanatics. These anti-ivory beings are not logical people, they subscribe to a system of belief that in many of its aspects is immoral, rotten, and undermines the very fabric of a just and moderate society. Certainly it is always best to try to win any conflict without actually getting involved in a fight, but when one is dealing with people who live in accordance with a belief system that in many of its philosophies parallels a religious belief, one must question if it is possible to defeat these beings without drawing a little blood? (figuratively speaking, of course) For those who are directly affected by these obnoxious imitations of humanity and the edicts that they have generated, perhaps the writings of Sun Tzu may be of use. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 16th May 2016 at 11:46 PM.

17th May 2016, 12:04 AM	#5
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Basically, if you live in the US, your ivory hilted and inlaid weapons are not legal to sell or transport, you would have to get a permit which in most cases would be impossible from what I am reading. Anyone have a different opinion. Soon European countries may inact the same or similar total bans, then what? http://www.fws.gov/international/tra...nswers.html#27 http://www.fws.gov/policy/do210A1.pdf https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-201...2015-18487.pdf Attached Images Last edited by estcrh; 17th May 2016 at 12:32 AM.

16th May 2016, 10:47 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN NO PROVISION FOR OR CONSIDERATION GIVEN TO REGISTERING PRE- BAN IVORY ITEMS TO MAKE THEM LEGAL AND EXEMPT FROM DESTRUCTION. THIS SHOULD BE A EASY AND INEXPENSIVE PROCESS BUT SELDOM IS AND OFTEN IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING SUCH BANNED ITEMS AND IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THE ITEMS WILL NOT BE CONFISCATED TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE. THERE ARE ALREADY PLENTY OF CITES LAWS ON THE BOOKS ALLOWING THE RAIDING AND CONFISCATION OF VARIOUS ITEMS FROM PERSONAL COLLECTIONS AND BUSINESSES THAT CAN BE APPLIED. THESE LAWS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL FAIRLY WITH THE CITIZEN WHO IS CONSIDERED THE ENEMY BUT TO PUNISH AND MAKE AN EXAMPLE WHEN EVER POSSIBLE. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AS NO ELEPHANTS ARE SAVED THRU SUCH ACTS AND ART IS OFTEN DESTROYED. COLLECTORS AND DEALERS MAY LOSE MILLIONS ON ANTIQUES WHICH SHOULD BE LEGAL. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF A RARE RESOURCE ARE DESTROYED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO COMBAT POACHING WHILE ASKING FOR DONATIONS TO FIGHT POACHING AND SAVE THE ELEPHANTS. IT IS LIKELY THE MONEY USED TO FUND THE ORGANIZATIONS WILL EXCEED THAT ACTUALLY USED TO SAVE ELEPHANTS HABITAT OR FROM POACHING. I TIE UP MY MONEY AND TAKE CARE OF THE THINGS I LIKE AND COLLECT FOR YEARS AND HOPE TO RECOUP MY MONEY BY SELLING THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL DO THE SAME AT SOME TIME IN MY LIFE. FOR SUCH A COLLECTION TO LOSE ALL ITS VALUE AND TO DENY ANY POSSIBILITY OF PRESERVING AND PASSING IT ON DUE TO GOVERNMENT REGULATION IS EVIL. ITS ONLY LOGICAL TO DO THINGS THIS WAY IF IT IS INTENDED TO BE EVIL.

16th May 2016, 10:56 PM	#3
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	The first step would seem to be to inquire if there are other groups involved in re-working the restrictions on antique ivory. (Musicians come to mind, as I understand the bits of old ivory on such items as violin bows have created difficulties for professional orchestras considering international travel). If anyone is aware of such activity, this might be a good place to post information, as we marshal our forces toward some sort of reasonable solution. I think VANDOO's idea of creating some sort of registry, while cumbersome and intrusive in the extreme, might work as an interim concept.

17th May 2016, 12:58 AM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	The Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences has a website that seems to track individual state laws regarding ivory. The definition of what comprises "ivory" has been expanded to an otherwise ridiculous extent (if it were not for its state of origin) in California. http://www.aaps-journal.org/Fossil-I...gislation.html Governments have gotten way out of hand. The firearms restrictions mentioned by Alan are in effect to some degree even in firearm-friendly USA, notably in CA, NY, NJ, MA and MD, which states are noteworthy in their crusade against ivory ownership. Elsewhere, as forces of PC activism have managed to roil the waters regarding police maintenance of social order, restrictions have been eased by a remarkable extent, as the populace acts to take up arms while it is still possible to do so. This gives me hope that the pendulum is swinging back toward a more rational worldview overall. It may take a generation or so to do so, of course. Meanwhile, hold your politically incorrect antique artifacts closely, transfer them by inheritance, which is currently about the only legal course, and locate all those receipts which you kept since the 1970s. It may be too early to contemplate the maxims of Sun Tzu, but it seems that only those of us of a certain advanced age recall the relative freedoms which we enjoyed in our youth. It may be that we will be called upon to attempt their reinstatement.