Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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Sylektis 15th May 2016 08:18 AM

Destroying artwork
 
11 Attachment(s)
Not only warriors of ISIS destroy artwork. U.S.A. laws (about ivory) do the same. Look in what condition Bonhams auctioned weapons aged 200 and more years, from the Richard Wagner collection.
You can compare from their original state in the book "Oliver S. Pinchot, Arms of the Paladins, the Richard R. Wagner Jr. Collection"

Sylektis 15th May 2016 08:21 AM

12 Attachment(s)
Some more.

Sylektis 15th May 2016 08:23 AM

5 Attachment(s)
The end.

estcrh 15th May 2016 09:01 AM

Horrific destruction for no reason.

Ren Ren 15th May 2016 09:18 AM

Vandalism.

Kubur 15th May 2016 09:46 AM

It's disgusting.
But I don't understand, if the ivory is more than one hundred year old, they cant do that...

Lee 15th May 2016 09:52 AM

Bureaucratic hysteria
 
Senseless, gratuitous vandalism that will save no animals but which does stand as a monument to arrogant, incompetent, lazy regulation and lawmaking done from a 'politically correct' mindset.

Richard G 15th May 2016 10:57 AM

A couple of points:-

Bonham's should be ashamed of themselves for having anything to do with it.

I wonder where the ivory is now?

And do you know, you can still import ivory into the USA providing you have shot the elephant yourself!

Sylektis 15th May 2016 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G
A couple of points:-

Bonham's should be ashamed of themselves for having anything to do with it.

I wonder where the ivory is now?

And do you know, you can still import ivory into the USA providing you have shot the elephant yourself!

My friend Eutyxis showed me this:
https://www.antiquestradegazette.co...antiques-in-us/
:mad:

Sajen 15th May 2016 12:00 PM

Horrible!!! :mad: :mad:

Norman McCormick 15th May 2016 12:32 PM

Straightforward Common Sense and Political Correctness appear to be as mutually exclusive in the U.S.A. as they are here in Europe.
Regards,
Norman.

estcrh 15th May 2016 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
It's disgusting.
But I don't understand, if the ivory is more than one hundred year old, they cant do that...
In the U.S. it is much more complicated, it is virtually impossible to prove how old the ivory is under the current system, they have decided to ignore the rights of people who have purchased or otherwise own antique items containing ivory when it comes to reselling these items. Now people resort to calling it "bone" and not selling items with ivory openly, this is a real problem here and it will only get worse.

corrado26 15th May 2016 12:42 PM

these pictures demonstrate urgently the grandiose stupiditiy of men at its best!!
corrado26

ariel 15th May 2016 02:41 PM

What can we do with our own ivory-, walrus- and rhino - handled swords and daggers?
Is it safe to buy such items from foreign countries to be shipped here?
What about shipping outside the U.S. ? Within the US?

These stories open a huge can of poisonous worms for antique dealers and weapon collectors.

Rick 15th May 2016 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
What can we do with our own ivory-, walrus- and rhino - handled swords and daggers?
Is it safe to buy such items from foreign countries to be shipped here?
What about shipping outside the U.S. ? Within the US?

These stories open a huge can of poisonous worms for antique dealers and weapon collectors.


And you probably never dreamed that your own country could or would mark you as a criminal.......neither did I.

Oh well off to the Fun store for more ammo for the AR.

Tim Simmons 15th May 2016 03:05 PM

It is truly ghastly to see such vandalism even if done with good intention. Destroying ivory to kill the market, prestige concept of the material is probably only happening in " western " countries. Where I think there is little demand for new ivory. This is hitting the wrong people. However I can understand the the no if,s and buts view.

kronckew 15th May 2016 04:06 PM

political correctness at it's work again.

i lost a few old ivory netsuke i bought in japan a couple decades back. US customs just took them.

this thread's destruction is like defacing the mona lisa to avoid offending someone.

Lee 15th May 2016 04:19 PM

This article covers some of the implications. I expect that these regulations will ultimately face court challenge as it is a seizure of the value of a person's property without adequate justification.

Obviously I do not at all believe the demonization of antique ivory is going to save any wildlife. Indeed Kenya's recent mass ivory burn was just stupid. Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers.

Rick 15th May 2016 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
This article covers some of the implications. I expect that these regulations will ultimately face court challenge as it is a seizure of the value of a person's property without adequate justification.

Obviously I do not at all believe the demonization of antique ivory is going to save any wildlife. Indeed Kenya's recent mass ivory burn was just stupid. Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers.


Oh, that would be too damn easy Lee.
How the hell do we always manage to wind up with people running the show that do things like this?

kronckew 15th May 2016 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
... Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers.


sell it at a low bargain price that makes it uneconomical for poachers to carry on...

asomotif 15th May 2016 06:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
this thread's destruction is like defacing the mona lisa to avoid offending someone.


Her right wrist is still very naked.

Norman McCormick 15th May 2016 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
How the hell do we always manage to wind up with people running the show that do things like this?



Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!!

kai 15th May 2016 07:57 PM

Quote:
sell it at a low bargain price that makes it uneconomical for poachers to carry on...

That doesn't work, especially when stupid "pseudo-pharmaceutic" demand exceeds remaining wildlife as evident with rhino. I hear that even despite being regarded as useless from a TCM point of view, antique horn gets stripped from cultural artifacts for resale to dumb "customers" which is just as criminal for the preservation of mankind's cultural heritage.

This is a terribly difficult subject and I do understand those with good and certainly laudable intentions who want to save rhinos, elephants, tigers, and other wildlife in jeopardy. Given the extreme losses we have been witnessing during the last decades, I could live with fairly drastic measures - if they really work and also take into account that antique cultural artifacts are a heritage of mankind that also desperately needs to be preserved from extinction, i. e. destruction.

Regards,
Kai

Robert 15th May 2016 08:00 PM

The immeasurable stupidity as well as the blind following of the new 'politically correct" doctrine that lead to this is far more dangerous than just what is shown here. Unless something is done that will change this kind of thinking I am afraid of what might come next. Can you imagine if this were to become the norm what our museums might look like in the future? Not just the removal of offencive objects, ivory, edged weapons, but possibly the wanton removal and destruction of these items as well as anything else that might be deemed offencive in the eyes of the politically correct. The removal of the ivory on the items originally being discussed is not only the senseless destruction of objects of art, but of history itself.

kronckew 15th May 2016 08:30 PM

removed by me to 'not offend'.

Rick 15th May 2016 08:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!!


We need a vaccine for this disease.

A. G. Maisey 15th May 2016 09:13 PM

Rick, that vaccine is called :- REVOLUTION.

It works by destruction of the offending elements of the whole.

These elements can be identified by their inability to act in a way that is in harmony with basic human rights.

STORY

Several months ago the man who is arguably the foremost authority on the artistic aspects of the Javanese keris, and who almost single-handedly was responsible for the re-birth of the keris in Jawa asked me if I would accept a gift from him.

Anything you get for nothing must be good. Of course I said I'd be more than happy to accept his gift.

The gift duly arrived.

It was a number of very good ivory hilts.

I rang him and thanked him profusely, and asked why he had given them to me.

"Well Alan, I live in America, and I am very fearful that if it becomes known to the wrong people that I possess some ivory objects, my home will be invaded, the objects will be destroyed and I and my wife will be prosecuted. "

The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

Rick 15th May 2016 09:17 PM

Driven by:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2...ry/christy-text
How sad. :(

rickystl 15th May 2016 11:19 PM

He said he was going to "transform" America. :(

David 15th May 2016 11:24 PM

Well, these examples shown here are a terrible shame and i do believe that something most definitely needs to be done to both protect these precious and beautiful antiques as well as the lives of elephants and other ivory bearing animals that exist in this world. This issue is very complex, but i certainly cannot see how the destruction of antique ivory can save the elephant from extinction.
That said, i do fear that we are being a bit too fearful of our own private collections. These laws are, for the most part, governing commerce. I do not see that the U.S. government is going to march into any museums anytime soon and destroy the vast collections of antique ivory artifacts that can be found there. Bonham auctioned these weapons which is how they fell prey to this ridiculous law that affects antique ivory as well as new. Despite the fears of the American collector who sent his ivory hilts to Alan for fear of confiscation, i have serious doubts that private collections are in danger...at this moment. I do think the collectors in all fields that do come in contact with antique ivory need to band together, sooner rather than later, to petition for a more just reading of current laws to ensure that antique ivory is not problematic for authorities in the future.
I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end. ;) :)


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