Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks

Kubur · 2nd April 2016, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.
.

Yes I agree, it was just to have an exciting and attractive title...
They are not fake if they were intented to be produced for the tourist market.
But as you mentionned some of them appear now on the market as genuine items...
My first example, four Moroccan pistols.
2 originals, one with the classical miquelet snaphaunce lock, both Moroccan butt disc pistols.
1 most probably with an original stock and a fake lock
and the last one is a tourist production around 1920-40ties, sold sometimes with a koummiya as a panoplie set...

rickystl · 2nd April 2016, 05:59 PM

Hi Kubur.

As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL.

I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8.

Rick

digenis · 4th April 2016, 08:47 PM

A short visit to one of the bazaars in Kabul, Afghanistan will provide the interested collector a sample of the wildest array of composite or new "old" weapons. Some of these creations must have required a certain degree of skill or imagination. The gamut is pretty wide. Anything from flintlock pistols to old Lee Enfield rifles all made in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

rickystl · 9th April 2016, 05:35 PM

Hello all.
Below, are examples of the latter made Tourist pistols. Note the crude workmanship. The first two photos show a pistol with the lock mounted on the wrong side. LOL The last photo shows the most common type you see today. There is always at least 2-3 of these for sale on all of the best known gun auction web-sites. They look so much alike, it would not surprise me if they were all made in the same shop. Some have vent holes drilled in the barrel, and some don't.
There is so little workmanship in the newer ones as opposed to the earlier ones like Kubur posted above. It's amazing how much work went into the earlier ones for just a tourist item. You could almost consider the earlier ones collectable in their own right (?)
There are legitiment gun dealers that sell these (my last photo) as known tourist items. There are others that simply don't know, and probably wonder why they never sell. It still amazes me how little knowledge there is on Ethno firearms outside this Forum from otherwise knowledgable gun dealers.
Rick.

rickystl · 9th April 2016, 05:37 PM

Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see.

Kubur · 9th April 2016, 06:25 PM

Hi Rick,

Nice to see you back!

Your first pistol is a nice "tourist" pistol from Morocco and a Spanish look-like lock. By the way this pistol is not so bad. I wonder if some so-called tourist pistols were used by Moroccans for fantasia. Some local locks look functionnal, what do you think?

Your second pistol is so common. I call them Mediteranean tourist pistols as I don't know where they were made: Turkey, Syria, Algeria?
They have always crude brass decoration such as the butt, but sometimes they have very nice and old Turkish locks, with simple wood stock.

In this category, there is one singular pistol with a monster head butt.
Some of them have old reused Turkish locks. Some of them were sold for an insane amount of money recently despite the fact that they are tourist pistols. In a book I saw they are described as Turkish / Caucasian pistols. So it's possible that this kind of pistol has an origin in the Eastern Turkey and maybe some of them were really used... But I saw in Ankara this kind of pistol in the tourist market and they were clearly cheap tourist production...

Best,
Kubur

rickystl · 9th April 2016, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,

Nice to see you back!

Your first pistol is a nice "tourist" pistol from Morocco and a Spanish look-like lock. By the way this pistol is not so bad. I wonder if some so-called tourist pistols were used by Moroccans for fantasia. Some local locks look functionnal, what do you think?

Your second pistol is so common. I call them Mediteranean tourist pistols as I don't know where they were made: Turkey, Syria, Algeria?
They have always crude brass decoration such as the butt, but sometimes they have very nice and old Turkish locks, with simple wood stock.

In this category, there is one singular pistol with a monster head butt.
Some of them have old reused Turkish locks. Some of them were sold for an insane amount of money recently despite the fact that they are tourist pistols. In a book I saw they are described as Turkish / Caucasian pistols. So it's possible that this kind of pistol has an origin in the Eastern Turkey and maybe some of them were really used... But I saw in Ankara this kind of pistol in the tourist market and they were clearly cheap tourist production...

Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur !! How have you been ?
The first monster head one you posted, I can't tell if the lock is original or not without a closer view.
The second one does in fact appear to have an original Ottoman style miquelet lock utilized to make a fantacy gun. Also note the oversixe vent hole in the barrel being located well ahead of the pan area of the lock. This leads me to believe the barrel may also have been original and just utilized along with the lock, paying no attention to where the vent hole and lock placement should be while building this one. Strange. But it is a good example of utilizing old parts to build a fantacy or tourist gun.
Rick.

corrado26 · 9th April 2016, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see.

A pistol normally is a firearm, a piece that has a special function. Your third example is no pistol with any function but a functionless piece of wood with metal applications. Those pieces you got in the 1980s as a gift when you has bought a carpet in a German Bazar.
corrado26

rickystl · 9th April 2016, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

A pistol normally is a firearm, a piece that has a special function. Your third example is no pistol with any function but a functionless piece of wood with metal applications. Those pieces you got in the 1980s as a gift when you has bought a carpet in a German Bazar.
corrado26

Hi Corrado.
You are so right. I can't believe how many of this same tourist gun I've seen. They all look alike. That's what made me think that all of this particular style were made (and maybe still are?) in the same shop. LOL

Rick.

9th April 2016, 05:35 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hello all. Below, are examples of the latter made Tourist pistols. Note the crude workmanship. The first two photos show a pistol with the lock mounted on the wrong side. LOL The last photo shows the most common type you see today. There is always at least 2-3 of these for sale on all of the best known gun auction web-sites. They look so much alike, it would not surprise me if they were all made in the same shop. Some have vent holes drilled in the barrel, and some don't. There is so little workmanship in the newer ones as opposed to the earlier ones like Kubur posted above. It's amazing how much work went into the earlier ones for just a tourist item. You could almost consider the earlier ones collectable in their own right (?) There are legitiment gun dealers that sell these (my last photo) as known tourist items. There are others that simply don't know, and probably wonder why they never sell. It still amazes me how little knowledge there is on Ethno firearms outside this Forum from otherwise knowledgable gun dealers. Rick. Attached Images

9th April 2016, 05:37 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see. Attached Images

9th April 2016, 06:25 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rick, Nice to see you back! Your first pistol is a nice "tourist" pistol from Morocco and a Spanish look-like lock. By the way this pistol is not so bad. I wonder if some so-called tourist pistols were used by Moroccans for fantasia. Some local locks look functionnal, what do you think? Your second pistol is so common. I call them Mediteranean tourist pistols as I don't know where they were made: Turkey, Syria, Algeria? They have always crude brass decoration such as the butt, but sometimes they have very nice and old Turkish locks, with simple wood stock. In this category, there is one singular pistol with a monster head butt. Some of them have old reused Turkish locks. Some of them were sold for an insane amount of money recently despite the fact that they are tourist pistols. In a book I saw they are described as Turkish / Caucasian pistols. So it's possible that this kind of pistol has an origin in the Eastern Turkey and maybe some of them were really used... But I saw in Ankara this kind of pistol in the tourist market and they were clearly cheap tourist production... Best, Kubur Attached Images

2nd April 2016, 05:59 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Kubur. As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL. I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8. Rick

4th April 2016, 08:47 PM	#3
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	A short visit to one of the bazaars in Kabul, Afghanistan will provide the interested collector a sample of the wildest array of composite or new "old" weapons. Some of these creations must have required a certain degree of skill or imagination. The gamut is pretty wide. Anything from flintlock pistols to old Lee Enfield rifles all made in Afghanistan or Pakistan.