Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21274)

Kubur 1st April 2016 08:21 AM

Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks
 
Hi Guys,

I noticed a lot of strange combinaisons with Turkish, Moroccan and sometimes Afghan pistols. They were made by the end of the 19th and early 20th c. for the first tourist market but with real pistols no longer in use.
I will post some example later, if you have some please feel free to post them.
Thanks

Kubur

Kubur 1st April 2016 01:18 PM

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This Turkish ball butt pistol came with a fake lock, unless the pistol is an old one, with a good stock and a barrel still with some powder inside.
To the opposite, I saw many Turkish Ottoman pistols made for tourist market but with real old locks (miquelet). Rick posted one or two examples in the past.
I have seen many Moroccan pistols with the same thing, recent stock and old lock or recent lock and old stock...
I hope the firearms lovers will understand what I'm trying to say...
I do think that's important for the community to avoid mistakes or to do some good catchs...

Battara 1st April 2016 04:31 PM

Kubur, this is a great idea - showing newer versus older versions! Knowledge is power (and avoids many many mistakes :D ).

I have seen the older examples, but not newer ones (believe it or not) so this is helpful for me.

Jim McDougall 1st April 2016 05:23 PM

Very much agree, a very good idea to display comparative examples to show differences between authentically known pieces and items with components incongruent or of later reproduced nature.

Some time ago there was a very good article on British pistols with various East India Co mkgs as well as some with the British makers names and GR stamps etc. but which were produced in the Khyber areas. There was a cottage industry of the innovative artisans in these areas producing guns duplicating the originals even into our times.
Here the authentic as opposed to the 'fabricated' examples were shown with the telling features explained.

As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.

Good suggestion Kubur. As Battara notes, knowledge is power as the markets increasingly are consumed with questionable examples.

Kubur 2nd April 2016 07:06 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.
.


Yes I agree, it was just to have an exciting and attractive title...
They are not fake if they were intented to be produced for the tourist market.
But as you mentionned some of them appear now on the market as genuine items...
My first example, four Moroccan pistols.
2 originals, one with the classical miquelet snaphaunce lock, both Moroccan butt disc pistols.
1 most probably with an original stock and a fake lock
and the last one is a tourist production around 1920-40ties, sold sometimes with a koummiya as a panoplie set...

rickystl 2nd April 2016 03:59 PM

Hi Kubur.

As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL. :D
I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8.

Rick

digenis 4th April 2016 06:47 PM

A short visit to one of the bazaars in Kabul, Afghanistan will provide the interested collector a sample of the wildest array of composite or new "old" weapons. Some of these creations must have required a certain degree of skill or imagination. The gamut is pretty wide. Anything from flintlock pistols to old Lee Enfield rifles all made in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

rickystl 9th April 2016 03:35 PM

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Hello all.
Below, are examples of the latter made Tourist pistols. Note the crude workmanship. The first two photos show a pistol with the lock mounted on the wrong side. LOL The last photo shows the most common type you see today. There is always at least 2-3 of these for sale on all of the best known gun auction web-sites. They look so much alike, it would not surprise me if they were all made in the same shop. Some have vent holes drilled in the barrel, and some don't.
There is so little workmanship in the newer ones as opposed to the earlier ones like Kubur posted above. It's amazing how much work went into the earlier ones for just a tourist item. You could almost consider the earlier ones collectable in their own right (?)
There are legitiment gun dealers that sell these (my last photo) as known tourist items. There are others that simply don't know, and probably wonder why they never sell. It still amazes me how little knowledge there is on Ethno firearms outside this Forum from otherwise knowledgable gun dealers.
Rick.

rickystl 9th April 2016 03:37 PM

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Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see.

Kubur 9th April 2016 04:25 PM

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Hi Rick,

Nice to see you back!

Your first pistol is a nice "tourist" pistol from Morocco and a Spanish look-like lock. By the way this pistol is not so bad. I wonder if some so-called tourist pistols were used by Moroccans for fantasia. Some local locks look functionnal, what do you think?

Your second pistol is so common. I call them Mediteranean tourist pistols as I don't know where they were made: Turkey, Syria, Algeria?
They have always crude brass decoration such as the butt, but sometimes they have very nice and old Turkish locks, with simple wood stock.

In this category, there is one singular pistol with a monster head butt.
Some of them have old reused Turkish locks. Some of them were sold for an insane amount of money recently despite the fact that they are tourist pistols. In a book I saw they are described as Turkish / Caucasian pistols. So it's possible that this kind of pistol has an origin in the Eastern Turkey and maybe some of them were really used... But I saw in Ankara this kind of pistol in the tourist market and they were clearly cheap tourist production...

Best,
Kubur

corrado26 9th April 2016 05:04 PM

Quote:
Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see.


A pistol normally is a firearm, a piece that has a special function. Your third example is no pistol with any function but a functionless piece of wood with metal applications. Those pieces you got in the 1980s as a gift when you has bought a carpet in a German Bazar.
corrado26

rickystl 9th April 2016 07:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Rick,

Nice to see you back!

Your first pistol is a nice "tourist" pistol from Morocco and a Spanish look-like lock. By the way this pistol is not so bad. I wonder if some so-called tourist pistols were used by Moroccans for fantasia. Some local locks look functionnal, what do you think?

Your second pistol is so common. I call them Mediteranean tourist pistols as I don't know where they were made: Turkey, Syria, Algeria?
They have always crude brass decoration such as the butt, but sometimes they have very nice and old Turkish locks, with simple wood stock.

In this category, there is one singular pistol with a monster head butt.
Some of them have old reused Turkish locks. Some of them were sold for an insane amount of money recently despite the fact that they are tourist pistols. In a book I saw they are described as Turkish / Caucasian pistols. So it's possible that this kind of pistol has an origin in the Eastern Turkey and maybe some of them were really used... But I saw in Ankara this kind of pistol in the tourist market and they were clearly cheap tourist production...

Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur !! How have you been ?
The first monster head one you posted, I can't tell if the lock is original or not without a closer view.
The second one does in fact appear to have an original Ottoman style miquelet lock utilized to make a fantacy gun. Also note the oversixe vent hole in the barrel being located well ahead of the pan area of the lock. This leads me to believe the barrel may also have been original and just utilized along with the lock, paying no attention to where the vent hole and lock placement should be while building this one. Strange. But it is a good example of utilizing old parts to build a fantacy or tourist gun.
Rick.

rickystl 9th April 2016 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
A pistol normally is a firearm, a piece that has a special function. Your third example is no pistol with any function but a functionless piece of wood with metal applications. Those pieces you got in the 1980s as a gift when you has bought a carpet in a German Bazar.
corrado26

Hi Corrado.
You are so right. I can't believe how many of this same tourist gun I've seen. They all look alike. That's what made me think that all of this particular style were made (and maybe still are?) in the same shop. LOL :shrug: :D
Rick.

rickystl 9th April 2016 07:53 PM

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OK. Here is an extreme example (if not textbook) of what I was mentioning above.
The photos below show a pair of so called pistols for sale. The title was: Pair of Silver-Inlaid Flintlock Pistols. The description includes that the locks are rusted internally and do not function. And they estimate that the pistols were made in 1750-1820. The seller had a minimum starting bid of $1,500.00USD (with no Reserve), and a Buy Now price of $4,000.00USD. LOL !!!!!
They were being offered by an antique shop that obviously has no idea what they had. Don't think I would have had the heart to tell them. LOL!!!
But this is one of the best examples I have seen.
Rick.

Kubur 9th April 2016 08:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
The seller has a minimum starting bid of $1,500.00USD (with no Reserve), and a Buy Now price of $4,000.00USD. LOL !!!!!
They are being offered by an antique shop that obviously has no idea what they have.
Rick.



:)
Yes very often when they don't know, they always say Italian or French pistols 18th c.
and they are most of the time Ottoman Balkans 19th c.
The decoration on the lock and the barrel are always the same, so it's better to be suspicious when someone see this kind of silver paint...
Best,
Kubur

Kubur 10th April 2016 01:41 PM

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Another set sold recently
There is another kind of pistol tourist made its the pistol axe, I will try to find an example, but i'm ure you know what I mean...

rickystl 10th April 2016 03:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
:)
Yes very often when they don't know, they always say Italian or French pistols 18th c.
and they are most of the time Ottoman Balkans 19th c.
The decoration on the lock and the barrel are always the same, so it's better to be suspicious when someone see this kind of silver paint...
Best,
Kubur

Yes, I know what you mean. I know of at least two authentic Ottoman pistols currently for sale that are described as Italian/European. But of course they're not. And they are priced as European, which is why they never sell.
Rick.

rickystl 10th April 2016 04:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Another set sold recently
There is another kind of pistol tourist made its the pistol axe, I will try to find an example, but i'm ure you know what I mean...

Yes, some more good examples. The bone/imitation ivory stocked one in the middle: Looks like it may have utilized some original parts (?) At first, I thought the miquelet lock might be an original lock. But the pieces look like castings versus forgings. So it may be just a better made copy ? Note the lock is simply attached to the right side of the stock with modern wood screws instead of being mounted on the left side with lock plate bolts as would an authentic shooting piece.

Here is a pic of the tourist gun with the "axe" head butt you mention. This paticular example was sent to my gunsmith by someone who wanted it rebuilt to a shootable gun. So he inlet a new contemorary made lock and barrel, and added a sheet brass barrel band. I told my gunsmith: And you think I had some strange projects !!! LOL !!! :shrug: :D

Rick

Rumpel 11th April 2016 04:15 PM

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The mother of pearl and 'silver' wire 'Ottoman' pistols are ubiquitous in Greek 'antique' and souvenir shops (see pic). I expect a lot of the weathering on some examples is due to being displayed outdoors, for years, in rathe haphazard conditions... I wonder if they're Turkish-made?

As for Morocco and Afghanistan: in both Chicken Street and the suqs in Marrakesh and Fez, you can see various examples of highly-decorated muskets and pistols, often composed of new barrels and locks (and silverwork/mother of pearl) attached to seemingly old and well-worn stocks- upcycling, if you will.

I was tempted, in Kabul, to commission jezail-type decoration onto a new Martini-Henry just for an odd wallhanger, but I'd never get it back into the UK :rolleyes:

Kubur 15th May 2016 09:28 PM

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Sold recently
It's not a fake, it's an early tourist pistol, a copy of a Greek pistol...
Probably done in Istanbul. circa 1900-1920ties.


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