MONSTER MUSKET/JEZAIL FOR IDENTIFICATION

[BANDOOK]

"Wa-Alaikum-Salaam" Ibrahiim
I was waiting for your comments and am glad to hear from you,i bought this at auction and was told that the gun belonged to an old collector ,but no history how this came into his collection. am sure the barrel and locks are old,and woodwork and brass decorations added at some stage,i will check the insides soon.the huge cannon like bore attracted me
Sukhran
Rajesh

[Kubur]

Don't worry about the comments above
It's normal to have an old barrel and a more recent stock.
These guns were used until the beginning of the 20th c.
Please, send us more shots of the barrel. Thanks!
Kubur

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Don't worry about the comments above
It's normal to have an old barrel and a more recent stock.
These guns were used until the beginning of the 20th c.
Please, send us more shots of the barrel. Thanks!
Kubur

Translates to { I presume. If I may be so presumptuous } , it normal in some parts of the modern commercial market for these to be old barrels & locks to be installed in brand new woodwork & brass work to relieve collectors of there hard earned {or inherited...} money.

Unless sold as modern rebuild using old barrel & lock...{ the wood worm & damp has eaten the stock while it was left rotting in a palace or armoury cellar for 150 years...}

Namaste Ibrahim! ! Its interesting you ay these wall guns were used in the early 20th century? What references are there for the 20th century use?

spiral

[ward]

I would be very cautious on saying that the brass represented Pakistan. these are common symbals that that have been used for a while. bullets are expensive why would you not reuse older parts. In new mexico,usa we commonly use farm and construction equipment that is from the 1940-1970,s. People that do not have money use and repurpose things all the time. This does not look like souq work to me. carving a stock is work if done correctly. If the brass has sharp edges or the stock has polyurethane I would be a lot more inclined to belive it was more modernly refurbished

[BANDOOK]

THANKS KUBUR WILL GET MORE PHOTOS OF THE BARREL SOON,ITS GOOD TO GET YOUR FEEDBACK
THANKS WARD YOU HAVE A VALID POINT,SUCH WEAPONS ARE STILL IN USE IN REMOTE AREAS,WE STILL USE GUNPOWDER AND BALLBEARINGS,NAILS ETC IN MANY PARTS OF INDIA AS BULLETS /CARTRIDGES ARE EXPENSIVE,THEY GET RELOADED AND REUSED.

[Kubur]

Hi my friend,
As I said nice long gun from the end of the 19th, maybe from the very beginning of the 20th. The lock should be English or Persian/English...
I'm still intrigued by the barrel. It really looks like an Indian barrel from the end of the 18th c. Note also that the first Ottoman tufeks have the same "dragon mouth", but they are much older, 16-17th c.
Kubur

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ward

I would be very cautious on saying that the brass represented Pakistan. these are common symbals that that have been used for a while. bullets are expensive why would you not reuse older parts. In new mexico,usa we commonly use farm and construction equipment that is from the 1940-1970,s. People that do not have money use and repurpose things all the time. This does not look like souq work to me. carving a stock is work if done correctly. If the brass has sharp edges or the stock has polyurethane I would be a lot more inclined to belive it was more modernly refurbished

Pakistan flag symbol was said a little tongue in cheek Ward,

But seemed a lot more likely than the original Turkish attribution?

As for sharp edges on the brass I agree. I think you could nearly shave with that brass fitting?

As for stock I agree it well carved, but that doesn't stop it being recent, & if some are so badly done its even covered with polyurethane then that's just even lower quality work, surely?

[Richard G]

The mouth of the barrel seems to be in the form of a tiger's head which often appears on firearms associated with Tipu Sahib (orTipu Sultan), the Tigerof Mysore. I"m not saying this is one of those guns but it might indicate an origin for the barrel in Mysore or an area in South India aware of that tradition.
Regards
Richard

[BANDOOK]

HI RICHARD THATS CORRECT ,THE MOUTH HAS THAT KIND OF SHAPE AND FORM,SO WILL BE JUST A GUESS,THANKS FOR YOUR OBSERVATION

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Translates to { I presume. If I may be so presumptuous } , it normal in some parts of the modern commercial market for these to be old barrels & locks to be installed in brand new woodwork & brass work to relieve collectors of there hard earned {or inherited...} money.

Unless sold as modern rebuild using old barrel & lock...{ the wood worm & damp has eaten the stock while it was left rotting in a palace or armoury cellar for 150 years...}

Namaste Ibrahim! ! Its interesting you ay these wall guns were used in the early 20th century? What references are there for the 20th century use?

spiral

Salaams spiral, I aim off somewhat from the mid 19th C use of such weapons and arrived at a slightly later date...If I am more precise it may be seen as used up to the mid 19th though I cannot be absolutely certain...the following may be a closer spot date for its latest use...though no doubt some were used later and perhaps in the provinces by locals etc...That is why I give the mid 19C a little air...and arrived at what I consider as a reasonable early 20th C final resting place ..

Quote"Summary:
Indian matchlock musket or Toradar.

One of a collection of weapons seized from mutineers during the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), and subsequently donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India.
Description:
Cal. .625 in., smooth bore barrel 1054 mm long, ornamental grooves.

Pan on right hand side, V notch rear sight.

Fully stocked, secured to barrel by 5 bands, ramrod missing, iron trigger & 2 sling swivels. Straight stock with ornamental brass mounts, serpentine protrudes from piece of shaped bone attached to top of stock.
Statement Of Significance:
This is one of 287 weapons and associated items from the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India. The weapons had been seized from the Indian mutineers by British troops during the course of the mutiny.

The donation was in response to a suggestion by Redmond Barry, Chairman of Trustees, that a letter be sent to Sir Henry Barkly, Governor of Victoria, requesting him to write to the Governor-General of India. The letter to Barkly, dated 9 May 1859, noted that 'such objects placed in the Museum attached to the Library would afford interesting illustration of oriental national customs and peculiarities.'

The weapons were also war booty, signifying the relief of Victorians that their fellow colonists in India were once more safe. Many Victorian colonists (including Barry) had relatives in the British army and administration in India, had anxiously followed the bulletins of the Indian Mutiny in the newspapers, and raised funds locally to aid the cause. Some of the weapons were displayed in the main stairwell of the Library, alongside Australian Aboriginal weapons. Here they became symbols of the defeat of local peoples as the British Empire expanded around the globe.

The collection was subsequently transferred to the National Gallery of Victoria, and thence in parts to the Industrial & Technological Museum during the early decades of the twentieth century. At each stage in its history, the collection has been gradually reduced in size through items being presented or disposed of.
Acquisition Information:
Donation & Subsequent Transfer from National Gallery of Victoria (NGV), 1860
Discipline: Technology
Dimensions: 155.5 cm (Length)"Unquote.

It may be worth considering that in the 2nd Afghan war 1878 ...1880 the Afghan style of Torador was used against the British as illustrated on http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...cc=1966-10-9-1

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams spiral, I aim off somewhat from the mid 19th C use of such weapons and arrived at a slightly later date...If I am more precise it may be seen as used up to the mid 19th though I cannot be absolutely certain...the following may be a closer spot date for its latest use...though no doubt some were used later and perhaps in the provinces by locals etc...That is why I give the mid 19C a little air...and arrived at what I consider as a reasonable early 20th C final resting place ..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Greetings Ibahiim!.

Thank you.... I did wonder!

Spiral

[kahnjar1]

This however confirms that such old guns are still used to this day. A You Tube link from one of Michael Palins travel docos from the BBC. Not only a modern day use of a flintlock, but also using home made powder. Rather him than me I think!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua131xJiMKU

[Kubur]

Yep! It's what I said since the beginning...
When I was in Pakistan "few" years ago, the security guard in front of our hotel had...a blunderbuss!!
It's not a joke!

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

This however confirms that such old guns are still used to this day. A You Tube link from one of Michael Palins travel docos from the BBC. Not only a modern day use of a flintlock, but also using home made powder. Rather him than me I think!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua131xJiMKU

Hi Stu.
LOL! Great vidio!!! You only stand next to a flintlock pan going off - once. And you remember. LOL I've probably been "splattered" two dozen times over the years. LOL
It's remarkable how late flintlocks continue to be used. Notice he had trouble getting the gun to go off. The home made black powder was probably very crude, which caused him to over-charge the pan. Or maybe a dull flint. Which would add to my theory of why Ethno flintlocks in all forms had such extra strong mainsprings compared to their European counterparts. The flint in that region of the world was simply not the quality of the Black English flint, or the French Amber flint.
Rick.