Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   MONSTER MUSKET/JEZAIL FOR IDENTIFICATION (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19987)

BANDOOK 18th May 2015 08:55 AM

MONSTER MUSKET/JEZAIL FOR IDENTIFICATION
 
11 Attachment(s)
THIS ONE IS A BEAST WEIGHS 7 KGS,THE MUZZLE IS LIKE A CANNON HUGE 3CMS.WOODWORK WITH BRASS INLAYS AND TURKISH CRESENT MOON SYMBOLS.

Kubur 18th May 2015 03:13 PM

Waoww beautiful
I think this one has a Moghul barrel, isn't it?
Is it what they call a wall gun?
Kubur

kahnjar1 18th May 2015 07:49 PM

Very nice. I assume it is yours? I would think Sindi in origin, and used as a "wall gun".
Stu

BANDOOK 18th May 2015 08:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Waoww beautiful
I think this one has a Moghul barrel, isn't it?
Is it what they call a wall gun?
Kubur

THANKS KUBUR ,WELL HAVE NEVER HELD A GUN SO HEAVY ,ACTUALLY UNCOMFORTABLE TO CARRY SO I GUESS ITS USED TO FIRE FROM A FORT AND WITH A CANNON KIND OF BARREL IT WAS USED FOR LONG DISTANCES .

BANDOOK 18th May 2015 08:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Very nice. I assume it is yours? I would think Sindi in origin, and used as a "wall gun".
Stu

THANKS STU,YES THE STYLE OF THE BUTT IS IN THE SIND STYLE BUT IT HAS THE TURKISH CRESENT MOON??,I ASSUME ITS A FORT GUN AND WAS FIRED FROM A FIXED AREA,CHEERS

BANDOOK 18th May 2015 08:34 PM

1 Attachment(s)
ANOTHER PICTURE OF A SINDHI GUN

spiral 18th May 2015 09:56 PM

Looks good at a distance!

But clearly all of the brass work & wood work is brand new....

Look at all those fresh cut sharp fresh cut brass & timber edges, unlike the worn old barrel & lock... :shrug:

Was it sold as original? or antique? Hope it was very cheap?

The stock inlay shows the flag of Pakistan! ;) Ottoman I think not.....As its only just been made.

spiral

BANDOOK 18th May 2015 10:19 PM

Hi spiral such guns were used by baluchi tribes in Baluchistan ,Pakistan ,so the Pakistani connection,about it being made yesterday ,quiet possible ....thanks

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 19th May 2015 04:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BANDOOK
Hi spiral such guns were used by baluchi tribes in Baluchistan ,Pakistan ,so the Pakistani connection,about it being made yesterday ,quiet possible ....thanks


Salaams Bandook, I think what you have consists possibly an old barrel...The rest looks added...especially in the brass plate region and likely the entire woodwork. Difficult to say on the lock...trigger etc but the gun looks "played with"..Since the decoration is late on a replaced butt it throws the idea of it being Turkish.. Nice Barrel though...Did you strip the lock/trigger off and look under there....
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

BANDOOK 20th May 2015 11:33 AM

"Wa-Alaikum-Salaam" Ibrahiim
I was waiting for your comments and am glad to hear from you,i bought this at auction and was told that the gun belonged to an old collector ,but no history how this came into his collection. am sure the barrel and locks are old,and woodwork and brass decorations added at some stage,i will check the insides soon.the huge cannon like bore attracted me
Sukhran
Rajesh

Kubur 20th May 2015 11:47 AM

Don't worry about the comments above
It's normal to have an old barrel and a more recent stock.
These guns were used until the beginning of the 20th c.
Please, send us more shots of the barrel. Thanks!
Kubur

spiral 20th May 2015 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Don't worry about the comments above
It's normal to have an old barrel and a more recent stock.
These guns were used until the beginning of the 20th c.
Please, send us more shots of the barrel. Thanks!
Kubur


Translates to { I presume. If I may be so presumptuous ;) } , it normal in some parts of the modern commercial market for these to be old barrels & locks to be installed in brand new woodwork & brass work to relieve collectors of there hard earned {or inherited...} money.

Unless sold as modern rebuild using old barrel & lock...{ the wood worm & damp has eaten the stock while it was left rotting in a palace or armoury cellar for 150 years...}

Namaste Ibrahim! ! Its interesting you ay these wall guns were used in the early 20th century? What references are there for the 20th century use?

spiral

ward 20th May 2015 11:35 PM

I would be very cautious on saying that the brass represented Pakistan. these are common symbals that that have been used for a while. bullets are expensive why would you not reuse older parts. In new mexico,usa we commonly use farm and construction equipment that is from the 1940-1970,s. People that do not have money use and repurpose things all the time. This does not look like souq work to me. carving a stock is work if done correctly. If the brass has sharp edges or the stock has polyurethane I would be a lot more inclined to belive it was more modernly refurbished

BANDOOK 21st May 2015 11:04 AM

THANKS KUBUR WILL GET MORE PHOTOS OF THE BARREL SOON,ITS GOOD TO GET YOUR FEEDBACK
THANKS WARD YOU HAVE A VALID POINT,SUCH WEAPONS ARE STILL IN USE IN REMOTE AREAS,WE STILL USE GUNPOWDER AND BALLBEARINGS,NAILS ETC IN MANY PARTS OF INDIA AS BULLETS /CARTRIDGES ARE EXPENSIVE,THEY GET RELOADED AND REUSED.

Kubur 21st May 2015 05:21 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi my friend,
As I said nice long gun from the end of the 19th, maybe from the very beginning of the 20th. The lock should be English or Persian/English...
I'm still intrigued by the barrel. It really looks like an Indian barrel from the end of the 18th c. Note also that the first Ottoman tufeks have the same "dragon mouth", but they are much older, 16-17th c.
Kubur

spiral 21st May 2015 07:14 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
I would be very cautious on saying that the brass represented Pakistan. these are common symbals that that have been used for a while. bullets are expensive why would you not reuse older parts. In new mexico,usa we commonly use farm and construction equipment that is from the 1940-1970,s. People that do not have money use and repurpose things all the time. This does not look like souq work to me. carving a stock is work if done correctly. If the brass has sharp edges or the stock has polyurethane I would be a lot more inclined to belive it was more modernly refurbished


Pakistan flag symbol was said a little tongue in cheek Ward, ;)

But seemed a lot more likely than the original Turkish attribution?

As for sharp edges on the brass I agree. I think you could nearly shave with that brass fitting?

As for stock I agree it well carved, but that doesn't stop it being recent, & if some are so badly done its even covered with polyurethane then that's just even lower quality work, surely?

Richard G 23rd May 2015 05:24 PM

The mouth of the barrel seems to be in the form of a tiger's head which often appears on firearms associated with Tipu Sahib (orTipu Sultan), the Tigerof Mysore. I"m not saying this is one of those guns but it might indicate an origin for the barrel in Mysore or an area in South India aware of that tradition.
Regards
Richard

BANDOOK 24th May 2015 09:41 AM

HI RICHARD THATS CORRECT ,THE MOUTH HAS THAT KIND OF SHAPE AND FORM,SO WILL BE JUST A GUESS,THANKS FOR YOUR OBSERVATION

BANDOOK 24th May 2015 10:12 AM

8 Attachment(s)
Greetings Kubur,AM POSTING SOME MORE PICTURES OF THIS MONSTER,REGARDS

Kubur 24th May 2015 10:28 AM

Yes Richard is right, it's a tiger head, common in India, not only in Mysore.
They always choose powerful animals for the muzzle. The dragon was the most common as he is connected to alchemy and fire. Look at the cannons even in Europe they have frequently this dragon/monster head. Now I have the "feeling" that your barrel is not so old, maybe end of 18th c.

BANDOOK 24th May 2015 10:34 AM

THANKS KUBUR,IF YOU SEE THIS GUN YOU WILL KNOW,AM SURE LOCKS AND BARREL REAL OLD,THEN DONE UP SOME STAGE,PLEASE OBSERVE LOCK HAS THE NUMBER 2 WITH SOME FADED INSIGNA ON IT,CHEERS

spiral 24th May 2015 10:20 PM

The barrels a lovely old thing.


Seeing the stamp on the lock, it looks also later copy work.{Not as recent as timber or brass though...}

I guess they had a nice old barrel so built everything else around it, to get a few western dollars...

rickystl 25th May 2015 06:37 PM

Hi Bandook.
WOW!!! That's a monster!! LOL!!! Where on Earth did you find it??? Yes, designed to look like a Sind wall gun of some sort. LOL It's great.
At first, I thought of the possibility this might be a Victorian Era copy, which were assembled from a combination of old and new parts. And often, the barrels were highly exaggerated just for effect. But, as mentioned above, the stock and brass work look to new for even a Victorian copy.
A couple of tests if you would: 1) Run a dowel, rod, or piece of wire down the barrel and see if it goes all the way to the end of the breech? 2) Is there a vent hole at the breech of the barrel that meets the pan?
The lock looks original. The hammer is shaped like the trade locks of the early 19th Century. The barrel: I have no idea?? But it is sure cool looking. It looks like a 20th Century build of some kind. Sure is decorative looking. If I owned the barrel I might have a hard time not building something around it. LOL
But let me know what you find with the barrel. And thanks for Posting!!!!
Rick.

BANDOOK 25th May 2015 10:22 PM

THANKS RICK WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON THIS,I BOUGHT IT AT AUCTION AND THIS LOT CAME FROM AN OLD MANS DECEASED ESTATE LOT,ALSO GOT A MOROCCON MUSKET FROM HIS COLLECTION WHICH I WILL BE POSTING SOON,CHEERS

rickystl 26th May 2015 01:38 AM

Great!1 Yes, please post both. Thanks, Rick.

BANDOOK 26th May 2015 08:50 AM

HI RICK I HAVE PUT THE MOROCCON MUSKET ON ETHNIC FORUM FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION,CHEERS

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 27th May 2015 03:00 PM

Salaams all ...
The lock is off a Brown Bess...

see http://www.ima-usa.com/original-bri...arked-lock.html

I would suggest that the marks on the lock plate are the remnants of the Nepali mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

BANDOOK 28th May 2015 11:28 AM

SUKHRAN IBHRAHIIM,
GOOD OBSERVATION,SO ITS GOOD TO KNOW THAT NOW THE BARREL AS
WELL AS LOCK ARE ORIGINAL,CHEERS FOR THAT MAKES THIS BEAST A BIT INTERESTING FIND.

BANDOOK 28th May 2015 11:39 AM

KIND ATTENTION-KUBUR
 
1 Attachment(s)
KUBUR HAVE COPIED YOUR PICTURE,PLEASE OBSERVE THE GUY ON RIGHT HAND SIDE ,HE HAS QUIET A SIMILAR JEZAIL WITH THE THICK HUGE BARREL??WHAT DO YOU THINK?

spiral 28th May 2015 10:35 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I would suggest that the marks on the lock plate are the remnants of the Nepali mark.
:



I think the dodgy crown stamp over a 2 does not resemble the Nepali Brown bess lock in any way shape or form. {Looking on 22 inch monitor at time 400% enlagment.}

Old Afganistan NWF Brown bess lock re. used seems more likely...


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