Katars with protrusion

trajan · 14th May 2015, 02:53 PM

the only information i could add is that the only other 2 katar i have seen with projections both had 4 bars -- and long narrow blades but were both double bladed.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th May 2015, 04:51 PM

Hi Trajan,
Thanks for showing your katar.
I dont understand the Bonham link, not your fault, they show three katars - but they are from different places.
The one in the middle is a so called Garsoe katar, and is said to be from Sind maybe Kutch. The two other katars are not from there, they are from South India or maybe from Deccan - more likely South India.

The attached is small, but very sturdy, and have a number of cross bars. Victoria & Albert Museum has one like it (a bit different in the middle of the blade), but it is quite plain, with no gold decoration at all.

I have not researched them yet, but to my oppinion they are from Rajasthan and 18th century - if they are not tourist pieces that is.
Most of them have slim, but very sturdy blades with deep fullers, but you can also see them with broader blades.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 06:23 PM

Well noted Trajan...these are of course aesthetically beautiful pieces.
However, as we have tried to convince museums and much of the public at large, these weapons are often far more than simply just that, but often imbued deeply with cultural significance and history.
Jens is probably one of the most notable scholars on these Indian arms I have ever known, and has spent much of his lifetime researching these kinds of details and bringing their history into a wonderful dimension of their own reflecting their place in that perspective.

Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy.

The values of items, especially antiques, depend virtually entirely on authenticity, history, condition and accurate descriptions, otherwise people would just buy reproductions which look just as beautiful.

I hope you can see what I mean, and I do appreciate what you are saying.
While many collectors are indeed more attuned to the aesthetics and appearance, the larger number (particularly here as seen in the context of discussions) are concerned with a degree of detail.
I guess as an amateur historian I get passionate about that

so please pardon my exuberance.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 14th May 2015, 06:35 PM

If each post needs to be accompanied by thorough academic research on the piece, I for one would feel extremely discouraged to participate here.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

If each post needs to be accompanied by thorough academic research on the piece, I for one would feel extremely discouraged to participate here.

Teodor

Teodor, you know that isn't the case, but even a few descriptive words with a picture seems reasonable . I know that there are lots of collectors who have no interest in study of these arms, but even the most disinterested collectors want to at least label their acquisitions.

TVV · 14th May 2015, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Teodor, you know that isn't the case, but even a few descriptive words with a picture seems reasonable . I know that there are lots of collectors who have no interest in study of these arms, but even the most disinterested collectors want to at least label their acquisitions.

Jim,

I appreciate the effort you have put in sharing your knowledge with the rest of us in this forum. It is safe to say, this place would not be what it is without you.

The standard you have set is very high and hard to match for many of us. I am sure all members here want to know as much as possible about their collections: otherwise they would not have registered in the first place.

Unfortunately, sometimes we just do not have anything we can add to a thread that has not been posted before in terms of information, but we may have an example that somewhat fits the thread and I personally do not see anything wrong with posting additional examples, even if they are not accompanied by additional information.

I hope this all makes sense.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 10:45 PM

Thank you Teodor, but I do not mean to imply my standards should be followed by everyone. Though I admit to being a very serious student of arms, for me it is about learning, and the text I write is typically the result of the research I do. It is how I learn, and I enjoy sharing what I find...by the same token, often I have misconstrued or misunderstood a thing and I look forward to the corrections..again learning...as I learn from the responses as well.

Without dialogue or words, there can be no interchange or result is what I am trying to say. Simply sharing pictures is fun, but not necessarily helpful to those of us hoping to develop an understanding of the arms being shared.
Even a few words with a picture offers a sense of courtesy even if not particularly detailed.

In many years even before computers, when someone asked for illustrations or copies of something, I would not send them these things simply stuffed in an envelope, but would add a note or few words concerning the subject.
It is well known that in these 'modern' times, we are losing conversational skills and basic courtesies in interaction with the impersonalities of texts etc. I guess I just am old fashioned and miss that touch.

14th May 2015, 04:51 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Trajan, Thanks for showing your katar. I dont understand the Bonham link, not your fault, they show three katars - but they are from different places. The one in the middle is a so called Garsoe katar, and is said to be from Sind maybe Kutch. The two other katars are not from there, they are from South India or maybe from Deccan - more likely South India. The attached is small, but very sturdy, and have a number of cross bars. Victoria & Albert Museum has one like it (a bit different in the middle of the blade), but it is quite plain, with no gold decoration at all. I have not researched them yet, but to my oppinion they are from Rajasthan and 18th century - if they are not tourist pieces that is. Most of them have slim, but very sturdy blades with deep fullers, but you can also see them with broader blades. Jens Attached Images

14th May 2015, 02:53 PM	#1
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	the only information i could add is that the only other 2 katar i have seen with projections both had 4 bars -- and long narrow blades but were both double bladed.

14th May 2015, 06:23 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Well noted Trajan...these are of course aesthetically beautiful pieces. However, as we have tried to convince museums and much of the public at large, these weapons are often far more than simply just that, but often imbued deeply with cultural significance and history. Jens is probably one of the most notable scholars on these Indian arms I have ever known, and has spent much of his lifetime researching these kinds of details and bringing their history into a wonderful dimension of their own reflecting their place in that perspective. Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy. The values of items, especially antiques, depend virtually entirely on authenticity, history, condition and accurate descriptions, otherwise people would just buy reproductions which look just as beautiful. I hope you can see what I mean, and I do appreciate what you are saying. While many collectors are indeed more attuned to the aesthetics and appearance, the larger number (particularly here as seen in the context of discussions) are concerned with a degree of detail. I guess as an amateur historian I get passionate about that so please pardon my exuberance. All best regards, Jim

14th May 2015, 06:35 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	If each post needs to be accompanied by thorough academic research on the piece, I for one would feel extremely discouraged to participate here. Teodor

14th May 2015, 10:45 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Thank you Teodor, but I do not mean to imply my standards should be followed by everyone. Though I admit to being a very serious student of arms, for me it is about learning, and the text I write is typically the result of the research I do. It is how I learn, and I enjoy sharing what I find...by the same token, often I have misconstrued or misunderstood a thing and I look forward to the corrections..again learning...as I learn from the responses as well. Without dialogue or words, there can be no interchange or result is what I am trying to say. Simply sharing pictures is fun, but not necessarily helpful to those of us hoping to develop an understanding of the arms being shared. Even a few words with a picture offers a sense of courtesy even if not particularly detailed. In many years even before computers, when someone asked for illustrations or copies of something, I would not send them these things simply stuffed in an envelope, but would add a note or few words concerning the subject. It is well known that in these 'modern' times, we are losing conversational skills and basic courtesies in interaction with the impersonalities of texts etc. I guess I just am old fashioned and miss that touch.