Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   Ethnographic Weapons (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Katars with protrusion (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19667)

Jens Nordlunde 1st March 2015 04:49 PM

Katars with protrusion
 
2 Attachment(s)
Not so long ago I got a katar with protrusion, and would like to know if others also have these katars.
The length is 52 cm and the blade is 26 cm.
The whole katar is made of dark wootz, and is is undecorated.

trajan 13th May 2015 04:30 AM


Jim McDougall 13th May 2015 06:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trajan




Wow! nice example Trajan.
Any words, notes, ideas on the character, region, period, of these examples?
Sometimes it's nice to learn things about the history or region of the weapons. Otherwise these are simply two katars which look similar. This effect is very popular on pininterest :) In any case thanks for the entry.

Jens Nordlunde 13th May 2015 09:39 PM

Hi Jim :-),
Yes I asked myself the same question.
I dont know what the 'L' means, maybe it is a secret code.
I do hope, however, that trajan will explain it to us.
Jens

trajan 14th May 2015 05:21 AM

no idea as to history or origin. i merely posted the pic as jens asked for other examples with protrusions.

as to the mystery of the L, :) I cataloged my katars by letter.


Jim McDougall 14th May 2015 06:15 AM

Hi Trajan,
Thank you again for responding, with pictures! Interesting system using letters to 'catalog' (?) these weapons. I have often tried to imagine how it is possible to collect weapons without ever trying to learn more on their origin or age, but clearly these methods exist.
Nice exemplars, but how unfortunate to see them regarded without history or dimension.
I'm just sayin' :)

Jim

trajan 14th May 2015 01:55 PM

Your quest for knowledge is admirable jim :) but some people can collect for beauty and mere enjoyment.

i do research some items when i have time. If a true expert chimes in becasue of a picture that would be great.

all i have on this is a link to a recent auction of a nearly identical piece without scabbard from bonhams.

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22748/lot/94/

where it is described as kutch 19th century...not much information there either--sorry.

trajan 14th May 2015 02:35 PM

and since this is a thread about katars with protrusions--it would be interesting to know if jens or anyone has any additional information...as i do not.

trajan 14th May 2015 02:53 PM

the only information i could add is that the only other 2 katar i have seen with projections both had 4 bars -- and long narrow blades but were both double bladed.

Jens Nordlunde 14th May 2015 04:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi Trajan,
Thanks for showing your katar.
I dont understand the Bonham link, not your fault, they show three katars - but they are from different places.
The one in the middle is a so called Garsoe katar, and is said to be from Sind maybe Kutch. The two other katars are not from there, they are from South India or maybe from Deccan - more likely South India.

The attached is small, but very sturdy, and have a number of cross bars. Victoria & Albert Museum has one like it (a bit different in the middle of the blade), but it is quite plain, with no gold decoration at all.

I have not researched them yet, but to my oppinion they are from Rajasthan and 18th century - if they are not tourist pieces that is.
Most of them have slim, but very sturdy blades with deep fullers, but you can also see them with broader blades.

Jens

Jim McDougall 14th May 2015 06:23 PM

Well noted Trajan...these are of course aesthetically beautiful pieces.
However, as we have tried to convince museums and much of the public at large, these weapons are often far more than simply just that, but often imbued deeply with cultural significance and history.
Jens is probably one of the most notable scholars on these Indian arms I have ever known, and has spent much of his lifetime researching these kinds of details and bringing their history into a wonderful dimension of their own reflecting their place in that perspective.

Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy.

The values of items, especially antiques, depend virtually entirely on authenticity, history, condition and accurate descriptions, otherwise people would just buy reproductions which look just as beautiful.

I hope you can see what I mean, and I do appreciate what you are saying.
While many collectors are indeed more attuned to the aesthetics and appearance, the larger number (particularly here as seen in the context of discussions) are concerned with a degree of detail.
I guess as an amateur historian I get passionate about that :) so please pardon my exuberance.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV 14th May 2015 06:35 PM

If each post needs to be accompanied by thorough academic research on the piece, I for one would feel extremely discouraged to participate here. :shrug:

Teodor

Jim McDougall 14th May 2015 08:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
If each post needs to be accompanied by thorough academic research on the piece, I for one would feel extremely discouraged to participate here. :shrug:

Teodor


Teodor, you know that isn't the case, but even a few descriptive words with a picture seems reasonable . I know that there are lots of collectors who have no interest in study of these arms, but even the most disinterested collectors want to at least label their acquisitions.

TVV 14th May 2015 08:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Teodor, you know that isn't the case, but even a few descriptive words with a picture seems reasonable . I know that there are lots of collectors who have no interest in study of these arms, but even the most disinterested collectors want to at least label their acquisitions.


Jim,

I appreciate the effort you have put in sharing your knowledge with the rest of us in this forum. It is safe to say, this place would not be what it is without you.

The standard you have set is very high and hard to match for many of us. I am sure all members here want to know as much as possible about their collections: otherwise they would not have registered in the first place.

Unfortunately, sometimes we just do not have anything we can add to a thread that has not been posted before in terms of information, but we may have an example that somewhat fits the thread and I personally do not see anything wrong with posting additional examples, even if they are not accompanied by additional information.

I hope this all makes sense.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall 14th May 2015 10:45 PM

Thank you Teodor, but I do not mean to imply my standards should be followed by everyone. Though I admit to being a very serious student of arms, for me it is about learning, and the text I write is typically the result of the research I do. It is how I learn, and I enjoy sharing what I find...by the same token, often I have misconstrued or misunderstood a thing and I look forward to the corrections..again learning...as I learn from the responses as well.

Without dialogue or words, there can be no interchange or result is what I am trying to say. Simply sharing pictures is fun, but not necessarily helpful to those of us hoping to develop an understanding of the arms being shared.
Even a few words with a picture offers a sense of courtesy even if not particularly detailed.

In many years even before computers, when someone asked for illustrations or copies of something, I would not send them these things simply stuffed in an envelope, but would add a note or few words concerning the subject.
It is well known that in these 'modern' times, we are losing conversational skills and basic courtesies in interaction with the impersonalities of texts etc. I guess I just am old fashioned and miss that touch.

trajan 15th May 2015 02:18 AM

Jens,

bohmans picture some items in groups---auction lots 93, 94, and 95 are in that picture with the kutch exaample being 94 and the one i pictured.

thank you for your information--i appreciated it :)

Jim:

Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy.

i dont have to imagine that at all....my area of expertise is late 1st century roman sestertii--if you ever get to the museo national in Rome--you will find just that--a whole room of busts in a famous museum with no labels or anything just beauty..a scholar like i will be able to identify them.... but the average visitor will see only beauty.

trajan 15th May 2015 02:26 AM

but i do understand your point.

and as to the value of a simple picture --well it started this discussion on a thread that had languished since march...and now jens has shared enlightening information on this type of katar. :)

Jim McDougall 15th May 2015 03:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trajan
but i do understand your point.

and as to the value of a simple picture --well it started this discussion on a thread that had languished since march...and now jens has shared enlightening information on this type of katar. :)


Again, well said, and indeed the immortal cliché' "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" certainly applies. To many the simple beauty of a well crafted and beautifully decorated weapon needs little explanation, and this speaks to them.
To a historian the beauty is of course notable, but pales in comparison to the historical significance of the piece. For me, my favorites have often been worn, patinated and sometimes damaged old arms which held so much history in their countenance....and to me were far more beautiful then the lavishly crafted arms of higher end collections.

As you have noted, the discussion has brought forward interest in these katars...which is really what is important.....and thank you for sharing your photos. It has been interesting as well to see different angles in the appreciation of these weapons.....and as I mentioned....I enjoy learning.
I did not know of the museums displaying works without identification, and that is also intriguing.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde 15th May 2015 04:36 PM

I think we can conclude, that there are many different collectors on this forum, with different wishes to knowledge about their collection.
When this is said, I would also add that Jim, over many years, have attributed to a lot of the knowledge compiled here, and that he has used an enormous lot of time to research the different items, so the members of the forum can learn more about their collections.
I am sure Jim would like some responce to his posts, writen after hours of research - as the answers Jim writes are not pulled out of the sleeve, they are researched, from books, notes and the net.
Dont think a question is silly to ask - ask it, and I am sure you will get an answer.
Jens

Jim McDougall 15th May 2015 08:03 PM

Thank you so very much Jens for the kind words. It does seem (as once again, I have learned), there are certainly differences in the goals of individuals as we collect and often study these arms.

For me long ago, it became most important to study these weapons to learn their history, and indeed I spent often immeasurable time investigating, and gathering as much information as possible to learn all I could. By including this in admittedly long and detailed posts, I learned and wanted to share the information here, not only to benefit the archived material but to encourage the input and supported rebuttal of others This way not only those who participated would learn and revise material, but the huge volume of readers here would as well .

Having said that, I would very much like to return to this most interesting katar form and continue the valuable look into them. I think we have resolved that there are many avenues of perception in our way of looking at arms, and I look forward to seeing more entries, unconditionally :)

Thank you again !
Jim

Jens Nordlunde 15th May 2015 09:33 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Yes I agree with Jim that it is time to discuss the katars again.
The attached one is different from the others shown, as there are only two cross bars, and they are not as slim/thin as the ones shown before.
The attached katar was owned by Maharao Bakhtawar Singh of Ulwar r. 1791-1815.
The frace 'owned by' must be taken with a grain of salt, as it can mean that it came from Ulwar, but it can also mean that it was a gift from somewhere else. So more reaseach is needed to know for sure.

Roland_M 21st August 2015 12:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello Jens,

just for showing, this is the only four bar katar without any protrusions I ever saw. I cannot see how they fixed the bars. It is a very massive 750 gram blade made from very fine wootz.

Roland

Jens Nordlunde 21st August 2015 03:11 PM

Roland,
Thank you for showing it.
From where do you have the picture? If it from a book - what does the text say?

Not so long ago I saw one on the net, but that is the ony one I have seen until you showed this katar.
Jens

Roland_M 21st August 2015 04:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello Jens,

no book, this is the picture from a well known italian auction house in Sarzana and the katar belongs to me now :). For a ridiculously low price.

I already polished the blade and the wootz pattern is incredibly fine and detailed. I have added a picture after the etching process before cleaning, you can see an arrow shaped hardening pattern at the tip of the blade, including the barbed hooks.


Roland

Jens Nordlunde 21st August 2015 04:57 PM

Roland,
Congratulations :-).
Please let me see the whole katar after the cleaning - looks to be very nice.
What did the catalogue text say?
Jens

Jens Nordlunde 22nd August 2016 03:28 PM

Roland,
Do you remember what the auction text said?

mariusgmioc 22nd August 2016 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Roland,
Do you remember what the auction text said?


The question is legitimate but don't hold your breath!

I found out that in rather too many cases their descriptions are inaccurate at best.
:shrug:

mariusgmioc 22nd August 2016 03:49 PM

Hello,

In my oppinion (in other words I'm just guessing), the protruding bars of these Katars are nothing but the result of the way they were made. Namely the cross-bars were inserted in the perforations in the extending arms and their ends were riveted, resulting the protrusions we see.

I have seen Katars like these with diferent types of blades, diferent levels of decoration and diferent quality of workmanship so I don't think they can be attributed to a particular location or time period.

Like for example the hilt of a classic Kard can be with two scales or made in one piece, or like a Tulwar can have a hilt with a hand guard (knuckle bow) or not.

:shrug:

Jens Nordlunde 22nd August 2016 03:52 PM

Hi Marius :-)

Yes I know, but it would interest me to know all the same.

estcrh 23rd August 2016 05:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions...27/lot.137.html
A steel three-bladed push dagger (katar), India, 17th century
Estimate 2,000 — 3,000 GBP
LOT SOLD. 6,250 GBP (Hammer Price with Buyer's Premium)

A steel three-bladed push dagger (katar), India, 17th century
the three tapering blades chiselled with a central palmette ridge, the grip with four fretted crossbars with protruding terminals, modern metal stand with fitted armature, 41 cm. (16 1/8 in.)

This rare katar belongs to a group of early-17th-century push daggers. A 17th-century steel katar with four similar fretted crossbars from a Danish private collection was exhibited at the David Collection in 1982 and is illustrated in Copenhagen 1982, no.135. A similar triple-bladed katar is in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (Elgood 2004, p.160, no.15.34).

A katar with a closely related hilt and double-bladed dagger is in the collection of Lord Clive at Powis Castle (Powis 1987, pp.42-3, no.21). A number of katars of this type were presented by the 'Jagirdar of Alipura, Bundelkand' to the Prince of Wales in 1875 or 1876 and said to date from the eighteenth century.

Although katars were popular in the Mughal and Deccani courts, Welch attributes the origin of the katar to Southern India (see Welch 1985, p.271).


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:36 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.