Possible mystery - first clue

Ian · 10th December 2014, 07:28 PM

Dave:

That pommel is really not a typical feature for mainland SE Asian weapons. While there are occasional blades that resemble a ram dao (which your example also resembles IMO), the hilts on mainland SE Asian examples are quite different from yours and more closely resemble either those seen on ram dao from India/Nepal or hilts seen on dha/daab of that region. From memory, all that I've seen had a metal bolster or ferrule adjacent to the blade.

There is an old thread started by Oriental-Arms concerning two "bird swords" that were possibly dha and showed elongated and pointed hilts (See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2324). Those are the only two wooden hilts on dha-like swords that I can recall coming anywhere close to the elongated form on your sword.

It's hard to know what that elongated "cone" pommel on your hilt might represent, but it is quite different from the "lotus bud" depicted commonly on the pommels of dha/daab and which is an important Buddhist emblem.

Ian.

DaveA · 11th December 2014, 08:25 PM

Ian, the pommel resembles more closely an uncircumcised penis than a flower, but for me that is no clue.

Alan, we've discussed nomenclature before and I concur with your view. My interest is far less in what this sword is called and more in its regional and ethnic origin and function.

The idea that this sword might be related to a Naga Kabui weapon used for dancing was the first to occur to me when I saw it for sale. Please see the pictures attached - two depict my Kabui dao and the third is a dancer with a substantially smaller Kabui dao. My Kabui dao is a two-handed weapon of roughly the same size and even greater heft as the mystery sword we are discussing. The overall length is 25 1/2 inches with a 16 inch blade. Also, the Kabui dao is sharp on the curved edge, not the straight edge like our mystery sword.

I consider Assam as fertile hunting ground for identification of weapons that don't seem to fit the surrounding regions very well. Consider: The Kabui are one of the Naga tribes who reside in the area around Manipur. The dominant sub-tribe is called "Rongmei". In Manipur, "Zemes" and "Liangmais" together were recognised as "Kacha Naga", while the "Rongmei" and "Npuimei" as "Kabui".In the Brahmaputra valley and nearby are found other tribes such as the Kuki, Kachar, and Khasi. [See references below]

Much blending and cultural interchange has occurred since British occupation, but they retain distinct identities. The Kuki tribe is known to decorate their weapon blades with copper and brass and this may have, for example, influenced the decoration of my Kabui Dao.

This has led me to the idea that Assam deserves more attention; there is scant information available regarding edged weapons of the region.

References
P.R.T. Gordon, The Khasis. Available from Project Gutenberg

Rongmei Naga, Wikipedia

Sajen · 11th December 2014, 08:46 PM

The here shown blade is a pole arm from Tonkin area owned by my friend, 19th century. The edge is on the same side like the mystery sword from Dave. We think that Daves blade is a similar pole arm blade with a later handle. Please note the reddish lacquer on the handle from Daves chopper, something what is typical for this region. My friend still search for the picture in his large storage.

Detlef

10th December 2014, 07:28 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	Dave: That pommel is really not a typical feature for mainland SE Asian weapons. While there are occasional blades that resemble a ram dao (which your example also resembles IMO), the hilts on mainland SE Asian examples are quite different from yours and more closely resemble either those seen on ram dao from India/Nepal or hilts seen on dha/daab of that region. From memory, all that I've seen had a metal bolster or ferrule adjacent to the blade. There is an old thread started by Oriental-Arms concerning two "bird swords" that were possibly dha and showed elongated and pointed hilts (See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2324). Those are the only two wooden hilts on dha-like swords that I can recall coming anywhere close to the elongated form on your sword. It's hard to know what that elongated "cone" pommel on your hilt might represent, but it is quite different from the "lotus bud" depicted commonly on the pommels of dha/daab and which is an important Buddhist emblem. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 10th December 2014 at 07:43 PM.

11th December 2014, 08:25 PM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 416	The pommel Ian, the pommel resembles more closely an uncircumcised penis than a flower, but for me that is no clue. Alan, we've discussed nomenclature before and I concur with your view. My interest is far less in what this sword is called and more in its regional and ethnic origin and function. The idea that this sword might be related to a Naga Kabui weapon used for dancing was the first to occur to me when I saw it for sale. Please see the pictures attached - two depict my Kabui dao and the third is a dancer with a substantially smaller Kabui dao. My Kabui dao is a two-handed weapon of roughly the same size and even greater heft as the mystery sword we are discussing. The overall length is 25 1/2 inches with a 16 inch blade. Also, the Kabui dao is sharp on the curved edge, not the straight edge like our mystery sword. I consider Assam as fertile hunting ground for identification of weapons that don't seem to fit the surrounding regions very well. Consider: The Kabui are one of the Naga tribes who reside in the area around Manipur. The dominant sub-tribe is called "Rongmei". In Manipur, "Zemes" and "Liangmais" together were recognised as "Kacha Naga", while the "Rongmei" and "Npuimei" as "Kabui".In the Brahmaputra valley and nearby are found other tribes such as the Kuki, Kachar, and Khasi. [See references below] Much blending and cultural interchange has occurred since British occupation, but they retain distinct identities. The Kuki tribe is known to decorate their weapon blades with copper and brass and this may have, for example, influenced the decoration of my Kabui Dao. This has led me to the idea that Assam deserves more attention; there is scant information available regarding edged weapons of the region. References P.R.T. Gordon, The Khasis. Available from Project Gutenberg Rongmei Naga, Wikipedia Attached Images Last edited by DaveA; 11th December 2014 at 08:27 PM. Reason: added dimensions of Kabui Dao

11th December 2014, 08:46 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	The here shown blade is a pole arm from Tonkin area owned by my friend, 19th century. The edge is on the same side like the mystery sword from Dave. We think that Daves blade is a similar pole arm blade with a later handle. Please note the reddish lacquer on the handle from Daves chopper, something what is typical for this region. My friend still search for the picture in his large storage. Detlef Attached Images