Possible mystery - first clue

Sajen · 10th December 2014, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef:

I agree that this one is not necessarily from the Indonesian Archipelago. HOWEVER, in Anthony Tirri's book, Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul, there is a picture of the identical sword (but with a blue background) that he calls a parang beng kok from Bali (see fig. 300B, p. 424). That sword is not mentioned in van Zonneveld's encyclopedic reference on Indonesian arms, so I would guess Tirri is likely incorrect. Nevertheless, it is the exact same sword that you show in the post above.

Based on the shape of the pommel alone, which is the initial subject of this thread, there is a passing similarity to a Tengerrese sword that was discussed here a few months ago. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18718

Despite the comments to date, I would not dismiss an Indonesian origin just yet based on the shape of the pommel alone. Let's see the rest of the actual sword first.

Ian.

Hello Ian,

my opinion wasn't based alone by the pommel shape but by the complete sword/chopper. When it was for selling I was interested as well and have discussed it with a friend.

Hello Dave,

you have got a great bargain, this choppers are very rare. Maybe I will be able to show a similar example soon.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2014, 07:16 AM

Aussie cane knives are sharp on the opposite side to the hook.

After the cane has been burnt to get rid of excess foliage and snakes you cut and then turn the knife over and use the hook to throw the cane behind you. Its rotten work.

Like I said:- this knife is similar to the knives used in Oz to cut cane.

Interesting thing to me is that this knife has no ferrule. Balinese tools for cutting cane, grass, light scrub have either a solid ferrule, or a socket to accept the hilt. The construction of this knife shown appears to have no ferrule, which means that it seems not intended for any sort of heavy work, and certainly not as a weapon --- first bone you hit the hilt would split. Even knives intended to cut grass in Bali have ferrules --- in fact even the fruit knives and kitchen knives have ferrules.

So what was it designed to do?

Maybe harvesting some sort of fruit, or nuts?

Place a partial cut through the stem and use the hook to pull the fruit down?

No impact that way, hence no need for a ferrule.

kai · 10th December 2014, 07:56 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Aussie cane knives are sharp on the opposite side to the hook.

After the cane has been burnt to get rid of excess foliage and snakes you cut and then turn the knife over and use the hook to throw the cane behind you. Its rotten work.

Like I said:- this knife is similar to the knives used in Oz to cut cane.

Where did the early sugar cane plantation workers in Oz come from? Tamil?

Albert does mention this tool also from Java - what old-time tools have you seen having been used there for cane?

Quote:

Interesting thing to me is that this knife has no ferrule. Balinese tools for cutting cane, grass, light scrub have either a solid ferrule, or a socket to accept the hilt. The construction of this knife shown appears to have no ferrule, which means that it seems not intended for any sort of heavy work, and certainly not as a weapon

That's an issue to take into consideration, too.

Detlef, how about your other example?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 10th December 2014, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Detlef, how about your other example?

Hello Kai,

let me some time, my friend think that he have a picture but need to dig it out. The dimensions will show that it is not a cane chopper.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2014, 08:44 AM

Kai, Australia's early cane field workers were Melanesians. Essentially they were slaves. Young men and women were kidnapped, either by guile or by force and taken to work in the Queensland cane fields.

The practice was known as "blackbirding". It was a bloody disgrace.

But the upside is that the descendants of these people have produced some brilliant brilliant footballers.

Maybe the Australian Rugby League and Rugby Union should make ongoing donations to the Solomon Islands, and the other places that the ancestors of their best players came from.

Anyway, back to the knife.

Chisel grind?

Hook forms a hand-stop on the blunt back edge.

This design would be perfect for splitting bambu.

No, of course it is not any sort of chopper, let alone a cane chopper. No ferrule on a wooden handle and with a longish blade? How long would that stay in one piece if it was used to chop anything?

10th December 2014, 07:16 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Aussie cane knives are sharp on the opposite side to the hook. After the cane has been burnt to get rid of excess foliage and snakes you cut and then turn the knife over and use the hook to throw the cane behind you. Its rotten work. Like I said:- this knife is similar to the knives used in Oz to cut cane. Interesting thing to me is that this knife has no ferrule. Balinese tools for cutting cane, grass, light scrub have either a solid ferrule, or a socket to accept the hilt. The construction of this knife shown appears to have no ferrule, which means that it seems not intended for any sort of heavy work, and certainly not as a weapon --- first bone you hit the hilt would split. Even knives intended to cut grass in Bali have ferrules --- in fact even the fruit knives and kitchen knives have ferrules. So what was it designed to do? Maybe harvesting some sort of fruit, or nuts? Place a partial cut through the stem and use the hook to pull the fruit down? No impact that way, hence no need for a ferrule.

10th December 2014, 08:44 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Kai, Australia's early cane field workers were Melanesians. Essentially they were slaves. Young men and women were kidnapped, either by guile or by force and taken to work in the Queensland cane fields. The practice was known as "blackbirding". It was a bloody disgrace. But the upside is that the descendants of these people have produced some brilliant brilliant footballers. Maybe the Australian Rugby League and Rugby Union should make ongoing donations to the Solomon Islands, and the other places that the ancestors of their best players came from. Anyway, back to the knife. Chisel grind? Hook forms a hand-stop on the blunt back edge. This design would be perfect for splitting bambu. No, of course it is not any sort of chopper, let alone a cane chopper. No ferrule on a wooden handle and with a longish blade? How long would that stay in one piece if it was used to chop anything?