Possible mystery - first clue

[Sajen]

Hi Dave,

when I not complete wrong it is the pictured chopper you ask about. It is for sure not Indonesian like suggested but a Thai or Laos chopper when I am not wrong.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Looks a bit like an old-time Aussie cane knife, used for cutting sugar-cane --- yeah, yeah, I know its not, but it has similar features.

As Detlef says:- not from the Indonesian Archipelago.

[Ian]

Detlef:

I agree that this one is not necessarily from the Indonesian Archipelago. HOWEVER, in Anthony Tirri's book, Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul, there is a picture of the identical sword (but with a blue background) that he calls a parang beng kok from Bali (see fig. 300B, p. 424). That sword is mentioned also in van Zonneveld's encyclopedic reference on Indonesian arms, although with a different hilt and the sharpened edge is on the S-shaped section (not the straight back). This example is based on Gardner (1936), and the information provided shows that is sharpened on the opposite edge to the one pictured in Tirri's book.

Based on the shape of the pommel alone, which is the initial subject of this thread, there is a passing similarity to a Tengerrese sword that was discussed here a few months ago (see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18718). The Tengerrese are from eastern Java. Interestingly, van Zonneveld describes a ruding lengon (p. 115) from East Java as "an ancient weapon with a heavy, fancifully shaped blade which may be thick along the back, ending in a point curving forwards. The edge is extremely S-shaped." The drawing for this one is based also on an example shown in Gardner (1936) and appears closer to the subject of this thread than a parang bengkok.

Despite the comments to date, I would not dismiss an Indonesian origin just yet based on the shape of the pommel alone. Let's see the rest of the actual sword first.

Ian.

References:

Gardner, GB (1936). Keris and Other Malay Weapons. Singapore. (reproduced by Wakefield, 1973).

Tirri, AC (2003). Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul. Indigo Publishing.

Van Zonneveld, A (2001). Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago. Zwartenkot Art Books:Lieden.

[DaveA]

This is the same sword once in Tirri's collection and depicted in his book as you cite.

Here is what sets it apart from similar style cane knives/swords: It is sharp along the flat straight edge as shown in the picture, not the curved edge.

The Laos idea is interesting.

Other ideas?

[kai]

Hello Dave,

Here is what sets it apart from similar style cane knives/swords: It is sharp along the flat straight edge as shown in the picture, not the curved edge.

That does sound like what Alan is describing below, doesn't it? I'm not sure wether I'm getting the description in AvZ - sounds similar though.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello Dave,

please post the dimensions from the chopper and the thickness of the blade, this will be very helpful.

Regards,
Detlef

[DaveA]

OAL is 33 1/2 inches

Blade length is 19 inches

Blade thickness is 5/16th inch with distal taper to 1/8th inch

Blade width is 1 1/2 inch at base and 2 5/8 inch at the widest point of the bulge along the backside.

The edge is sharp along the straight edge on through the curve up to the tip.

The blade cross section is full flat with a flat grind (on both sides).

This is a very solid and relatively heavy weapon. I've no doubt it would find good use chopping in the fields or in battle.

I will post some close up pictures soon.

Best,

Dave A.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef:

I agree that this one is not necessarily from the Indonesian Archipelago. HOWEVER, in Anthony Tirri's book, Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul, there is a picture of the identical sword (but with a blue background) that he calls a parang beng kok from Bali (see fig. 300B, p. 424). That sword is not mentioned in van Zonneveld's encyclopedic reference on Indonesian arms, so I would guess Tirri is likely incorrect. Nevertheless, it is the exact same sword that you show in the post above.

Based on the shape of the pommel alone, which is the initial subject of this thread, there is a passing similarity to a Tengerrese sword that was discussed here a few months ago. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18718

Despite the comments to date, I would not dismiss an Indonesian origin just yet based on the shape of the pommel alone. Let's see the rest of the actual sword first.

Ian.

Hello Ian,

my opinion wasn't based alone by the pommel shape but by the complete sword/chopper. When it was for selling I was interested as well and have discussed it with a friend.

Hello Dave,

you have got a great bargain, this choppers are very rare. Maybe I will be able to show a similar example soon.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Aussie cane knives are sharp on the opposite side to the hook.

After the cane has been burnt to get rid of excess foliage and snakes you cut and then turn the knife over and use the hook to throw the cane behind you. Its rotten work.

Like I said:- this knife is similar to the knives used in Oz to cut cane.

Interesting thing to me is that this knife has no ferrule. Balinese tools for cutting cane, grass, light scrub have either a solid ferrule, or a socket to accept the hilt. The construction of this knife shown appears to have no ferrule, which means that it seems not intended for any sort of heavy work, and certainly not as a weapon --- first bone you hit the hilt would split. Even knives intended to cut grass in Bali have ferrules --- in fact even the fruit knives and kitchen knives have ferrules.

So what was it designed to do?

Maybe harvesting some sort of fruit, or nuts?

Place a partial cut through the stem and use the hook to pull the fruit down?

No impact that way, hence no need for a ferrule.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Aussie cane knives are sharp on the opposite side to the hook.

After the cane has been burnt to get rid of excess foliage and snakes you cut and then turn the knife over and use the hook to throw the cane behind you. Its rotten work.

Like I said:- this knife is similar to the knives used in Oz to cut cane.

Where did the early sugar cane plantation workers in Oz come from? Tamil?

Albert does mention this tool also from Java - what old-time tools have you seen having been used there for cane?

Interesting thing to me is that this knife has no ferrule. Balinese tools for cutting cane, grass, light scrub have either a solid ferrule, or a socket to accept the hilt. The construction of this knife shown appears to have no ferrule, which means that it seems not intended for any sort of heavy work, and certainly not as a weapon

That's an issue to take into consideration, too.

Detlef, how about your other example?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Detlef, how about your other example?

Hello Kai,

let me some time, my friend think that he have a picture but need to dig it out. The dimensions will show that it is not a cane chopper.

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Ian,

I agree that this one is not necessarily from the Indonesian Archipelago. HOWEVER, in Anthony Tirri's book, Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul, there is a picture of the identical sword (but with a blue background) that he calls a parang beng kok from Bali (see fig. 300B, p. 424). That sword is not mentioned in van Zonneveld's encyclopedic reference on Indonesian arms, so I would guess Tirri is likely incorrect.

BTW, Albert does mention the parang bengkok from Java and Bali: p. 98, Fig. 382.

As with many utility blades, good antique examples seem to be rare; moreover, determining the origin og a given piece is also often a challenge due to the form-follows-function factor. Maybe our member billhook can lend a helping hand?

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ian,


BTW, Albert does mention the parang bengkok from Java and Bali: p. 98, Fig. 382.

As with many utility blades, good antique examples seem to be rare; moreover, determining the origin og a given piece is also often a challenge due to the form-follows-function factor. Maybe our member billhook can lend a helping hand?

Regards,
Kai

Kai:

You're absolutely correct about van Zonneveld and I have amended my original post. Van Zonneveld also mentions another similarly shaped weapon from East Java.

Ian.

[DaveA]

See Gardner, "Keris and other Malay Weapons", plate 58. The drawing shows the parang bengkok (Java) #6 sharp along the hook side. The parang bengkok (Bali) #1 is ambiguous about the edge. Gardner doesn't claim to have actually seen this weapon.

A. Von Z. p98 image 382 (btw, this is the identical drawing from Gardner) describes the back as straight and the edge as "between S-shaped and concave." (I.e., on the hook side) This is in concord with Gardner's illustration, or at least we share the same interpretation. Curiously, Albert says the "blade's tip is curved sharply upwards." If the sharp edge is the curved side, it would seem correct to say that it "curves downwards." Yes? This suggests to me that Albert was working only with Gardner's text (which he cites) and never actually held the sword himself.

Tirri shows us the first real photo I can find in published sources. On p.423-424 there are depictions of three weapons from Bali. Figure 300a is a Teabuna and figure 300 is a Kudi Tranchang, both with a superficial resemblance to our subject weapon which is shown in figure 300b. However, compare the hilts and other features and I think you'll agree our subject weapon seems out of place.

I feel like I once saw a similar hilt on a Laotian or Cambodian weapon, but unfortunately I cannot recall anything more specific.

Best,

Dave A

[spiral]

Isnt there a blade like this in Rawsons work a Burmese dao/dha of some sort?

Also the hilt may not be original & may once of had a bolster/ferrule?

spiral

[Ian]

Dave:

That pommel is really not a typical feature for mainland SE Asian weapons. While there are occasional blades that resemble a ram dao (which your example also resembles IMO), the hilts on mainland SE Asian examples are quite different from yours and more closely resemble either those seen on ram dao from India/Nepal or hilts seen on dha/daab of that region. From memory, all that I've seen had a metal bolster or ferrule adjacent to the blade.

There is an old thread started by Oriental-Arms concerning two "bird swords" that were possibly dha and showed elongated and pointed hilts (See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2324). Those are the only two wooden hilts on dha-like swords that I can recall coming anywhere close to the elongated form on your sword.

It's hard to know what that elongated "cone" pommel on your hilt might represent, but it is quite different from the "lotus bud" depicted commonly on the pommels of dha/daab and which is an important Buddhist emblem.

Ian.