Citric soak

Sajen · 24th July 2014, 10:07 PM

I think that you can't say it for global. When rust is under the gold migrated I never would soak a blade in citic acid but when the gold is firmley attached nothing will happen, this is the experience I have had with blades I have cleaned with citric acid.

Regards,
Detlef

Gavin Nugent · 25th July 2014, 03:41 AM

Thank you Detlef. I will approach the blade with a more hands on approach when time permits and if the gold looks safe I'll deliver a final etch at the end.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2014, 08:48 AM

Yes Detlef, I agree totally, that is why I wrote:-

"---That gold may not get through a soak---"

I have found that the most reliable way in which to find out if the gold is firmly attached is to go ahead and soak the blade in some sort of acidic bath:- if the gold is still in place on the blade when you take it out of the bath you can bet that it is firmly attached.

But jokes aside, with any gold on blades, especially the sort gold we find on keris blades, it is best to be super cautious. It can sometimes be a good idea to clean mechanically first, then follow up with very selective and cautious brushing of the acidic medium.

Another way to tackle the problem of cleaning gold ornamented blades is to paint over the gold with nail polish, but this is not recommended unless the gold does look to be pretty secure. The polish comes off easily enough with acetone.

Sajen · 25th July 2014, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have found that the most reliable way in which to find out if the gold is firmly attached is to go ahead and soak the blade in some sort of acidic bath:- if the gold is still in place on the blade when you take it out of the bath you can bet that it is firmly attached.

Sajen · 25th July 2014, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But jokes aside, with any gold on blades, especially the sort gold we find on keris blades, it is best to be super cautious. It can sometimes be a good idea to clean mechanically first, then follow up with very selective and cautious brushing of the acidic medium.

Another way to tackle the problem of cleaning gold ornamented blades is to paint over the gold with nail polish, but this is not recommended unless the gold does look to be pretty secure. The polish comes off easily enough with acetone.

Yes, I agree with you. I have cleaned once a blade with gold by brushing the blade carefully with fresh opened lemons which I have bought in an asia shop.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2014, 02:07 PM

Something has occurred to me with all this talk about "gold on blade" business.

We haven't said how the gold is attached to the blade.

Without straining the brain cells too hard I can think of 4 ways that gold is put onto a blade:-

old fashioned fire gilding

attached with natural resin --- or in the modern age with a commercial adhesive

mechanical attachment by roughening the surface and hammering the gold over the design set out by roughening (koftgari)

mechanical attachment where an undercut cavity is cut into the blade surface, a lump of gold is hammered into the cavity so that the gold enters the undercuts, and leaves a large lump of gold above the surface of the blade, then that gold is carved. Effectively this is inlay, in the case of Indonesian blades, inlay that is sometimes very exaggerated.

If the gold is old fashioned fire gilding it is not a good idea ever to soak the rusty blade in an acidic medium

If the gold is attached by resin or other adhesive the decision to soak or not depends upon the degree of corrosion:- if there is a good chance that the rust has penetrated beneath the surface of the adhesive, you do not soak; if the rust is just a light surface dusting you brush with acid. In between these two extremes your experience guides you with the right way to go.

With typical Indian koftgari gold attachment I would never, ever soak, nor try to remove rust with an acidic medium in any way. Far better to conserve and live with the russetted surface. However, with good quality kinatah work, which is similar to koftgari work, the gold is often quite heavy and the attachment is robust. I would always think a number of times before I soaked a blade like this, even though it might not lose any gold, but I would not hesitate to clean by brushing with an acidic medium.

Where the gold has been attached by hammering into a dove-tailed hole in the blade, cautious soaking and careful brushing are both possible. Even if the gold carving works loose from the cavity, modern adhesives permit undetectable replacement.

In fact, I personally regard soaking as a "lazy-man's" way of cleaning blades. Yeah, sure I've used it and used it many times, but I do not believe it is the best way to clean any blade, including keris. I do believe that painstaking mechanical cleaning followed by careful acidic brushing is probably the best way to clean the blades of S.E.Asia.

I have read of other methods where electric current is used, but I have no knowledge nor experience of these methods. From what I have heard, cleaning in this way might well be superior to the traditional methods that I know.

Sajen · 25th July 2014, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, I personally regard soaking as a "lazy-man's" way of cleaning blades. Yeah, sure I've used it and used it many times, but I do not believe it is the best way to clean any blade, including keris. I do believe that painstaking mechanical cleaning followed by careful acidic brushing is probably the best way to clean the blades of S.E.Asia.

Very good said! And again my full agreement.

David · 25th July 2014, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Even if the gold carving works loose from the cavity, modern adhesives permit undetectable replacement.

Alan, is there a particular modern adhesive you would recommend for such repair?

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2014, 11:27 PM

The "gold-back-into-hole" job?

My personal favourite adhesive for anything like this is Araldite, its a two part epoxy glue. There is a version that sets within 5 minutes, and another one that sets overnight --- they say an hour, but it only sets in an hour in warm to hot weather.

The surfaces need to be roughened up a little and be very clean and free from any grease, acetone is good for this, and the job needs to be firmly clamped while the stuff sets.

Not clamped to the point where the adhesive gets squeezed out, but just a good firm pressure. With the 5 minute stuff you can just hold it tight with your fingers while it sets.

Once set, but not cured, you trim off the excess with a sharp blade. You can also wash off barely set excess with water, and set excess with acetone, but I have seen jobs come adrift if too much of the fluid is used, or too little care is used, its safer to let it just set up firm, then trim. You can only get as neat as you can see, so bright light and magnification is essential.

In Indonesia they use one of the 'super-glues' for anything like this, but these adhesives dry out after a while, usually a few years, and everything comes loose and you can lose little bits. This is particularly true of the stones in mendak and selut --- if its an old mendak or selut and had stones replaced in Jawa you can bet its been done with Alteco (a super-glue); eventually the glue will give way and you'll lose a stone, and rose cut rock crystal is not all that easy to find outside Jawa --- even in Jawa its not that easy any more. If the stone is a rose cut diamond its even more difficult to get one.

Sorry for the long answer.

Short answer:- Araldite.

GIO · 27th July 2014, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have read of other methods where electric current is used, but I have no knowledge nor experience of these methods. From what I have heard, cleaning in this way might well be superior to the traditional methods that I know.

I did used the electric system to remove rust. It works but long lasting treatment is required. I think that it would work with kinatah.
Gio

You can use a 12V car battery. The liquid is a NaOH solution.
The process may take 12 - 24 hours with no risk of damage. Only the rust will be removed.

A. G. Maisey · 27th July 2014, 10:00 PM

Thanks Giovanni.

If it also removes the rust that is underneath the gold, then that would trouble me, because with old kinatah it is only the rust that is holding the kinatah in place. With kinatah we need to remove the surrounding rust and not disturb what is under the kinatah.

I do think this electric method might be better for a plain steel blade though.

25th July 2014, 08:48 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Detlef, I agree totally, that is why I wrote:- "---That gold may not get through a soak---" I have found that the most reliable way in which to find out if the gold is firmly attached is to go ahead and soak the blade in some sort of acidic bath:- if the gold is still in place on the blade when you take it out of the bath you can bet that it is firmly attached. But jokes aside, with any gold on blades, especially the sort gold we find on keris blades, it is best to be super cautious. It can sometimes be a good idea to clean mechanically first, then follow up with very selective and cautious brushing of the acidic medium. Another way to tackle the problem of cleaning gold ornamented blades is to paint over the gold with nail polish, but this is not recommended unless the gold does look to be pretty secure. The polish comes off easily enough with acetone. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 25th July 2014 at 09:49 AM. Reason: correct text

24th July 2014, 10:07 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,213	I think that you can't say it for global. When rust is under the gold migrated I never would soak a blade in citic acid but when the gold is firmley attached nothing will happen, this is the experience I have had with blades I have cleaned with citric acid. Regards, Detlef

25th July 2014, 03:41 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you Detlef. I will approach the blade with a more hands on approach when time permits and if the gold looks safe I'll deliver a final etch at the end.

25th July 2014, 02:07 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Something has occurred to me with all this talk about "gold on blade" business. We haven't said how the gold is attached to the blade. Without straining the brain cells too hard I can think of 4 ways that gold is put onto a blade:- old fashioned fire gilding attached with natural resin --- or in the modern age with a commercial adhesive mechanical attachment by roughening the surface and hammering the gold over the design set out by roughening (koftgari) mechanical attachment where an undercut cavity is cut into the blade surface, a lump of gold is hammered into the cavity so that the gold enters the undercuts, and leaves a large lump of gold above the surface of the blade, then that gold is carved. Effectively this is inlay, in the case of Indonesian blades, inlay that is sometimes very exaggerated. If the gold is old fashioned fire gilding it is not a good idea ever to soak the rusty blade in an acidic medium If the gold is attached by resin or other adhesive the decision to soak or not depends upon the degree of corrosion:- if there is a good chance that the rust has penetrated beneath the surface of the adhesive, you do not soak; if the rust is just a light surface dusting you brush with acid. In between these two extremes your experience guides you with the right way to go. With typical Indian koftgari gold attachment I would never, ever soak, nor try to remove rust with an acidic medium in any way. Far better to conserve and live with the russetted surface. However, with good quality kinatah work, which is similar to koftgari work, the gold is often quite heavy and the attachment is robust. I would always think a number of times before I soaked a blade like this, even though it might not lose any gold, but I would not hesitate to clean by brushing with an acidic medium. Where the gold has been attached by hammering into a dove-tailed hole in the blade, cautious soaking and careful brushing are both possible. Even if the gold carving works loose from the cavity, modern adhesives permit undetectable replacement. In fact, I personally regard soaking as a "lazy-man's" way of cleaning blades. Yeah, sure I've used it and used it many times, but I do not believe it is the best way to clean any blade, including keris. I do believe that painstaking mechanical cleaning followed by careful acidic brushing is probably the best way to clean the blades of S.E.Asia. I have read of other methods where electric current is used, but I have no knowledge nor experience of these methods. From what I have heard, cleaning in this way might well be superior to the traditional methods that I know.

25th July 2014, 11:27 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The "gold-back-into-hole" job? My personal favourite adhesive for anything like this is Araldite, its a two part epoxy glue. There is a version that sets within 5 minutes, and another one that sets overnight --- they say an hour, but it only sets in an hour in warm to hot weather. The surfaces need to be roughened up a little and be very clean and free from any grease, acetone is good for this, and the job needs to be firmly clamped while the stuff sets. Not clamped to the point where the adhesive gets squeezed out, but just a good firm pressure. With the 5 minute stuff you can just hold it tight with your fingers while it sets. Once set, but not cured, you trim off the excess with a sharp blade. You can also wash off barely set excess with water, and set excess with acetone, but I have seen jobs come adrift if too much of the fluid is used, or too little care is used, its safer to let it just set up firm, then trim. You can only get as neat as you can see, so bright light and magnification is essential. In Indonesia they use one of the 'super-glues' for anything like this, but these adhesives dry out after a while, usually a few years, and everything comes loose and you can lose little bits. This is particularly true of the stones in mendak and selut --- if its an old mendak or selut and had stones replaced in Jawa you can bet its been done with Alteco (a super-glue); eventually the glue will give way and you'll lose a stone, and rose cut rock crystal is not all that easy to find outside Jawa --- even in Jawa its not that easy any more. If the stone is a rose cut diamond its even more difficult to get one. Sorry for the long answer. Short answer:- Araldite.

27th July 2014, 10:00 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Giovanni. If it also removes the rust that is underneath the gold, then that would trouble me, because with old kinatah it is only the rust that is holding the kinatah in place. With kinatah we need to remove the surrounding rust and not disturb what is under the kinatah. I do think this electric method might be better for a plain steel blade though.