VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

Maurice · 26th February 2014, 09:25 AM

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections.

I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 08:20 PM

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

asomotif · 26th February 2014, 09:53 PM

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

Maurice · 5th May 2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

Hi Willem,

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

I was a kind of in a hurry, but if I'm right it was from a donation somewhere in the 20th century..

Maurice · 5th May 2014, 06:07 PM

Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early!
(From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg).

Maurice · 5th May 2014, 09:51 PM

PS I think the VOC mark would make the item much more valuable to collect.
For instance how much would you give for the lid of a chest with VOC mark, and how much would you pay for the same lid without the VOC mark?

:-)

asomotif · 8th May 2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

Hello Maurice,

You're making the best of your holidays !

Thank you for sharing these pictures.
Interesting to see a blade with "M" Middelburg marking.

The javanese style pedang with silver scabbard is realy great.

Best regards,
Willem

Fried Krom · 18th May 2015, 01:04 PM

All,

Attached some pictures of my VOC boarding-cutlass.

Who can identify the hilt for me?

Thanks in advance,

Fried Krom

Maurice · 18th May 2015, 04:52 PM

Hello Fried,

You have a good old Batak podang with VOC blade.
I have seen several podangs with VOC blade and it is always nice seeing one pop up here or there.

Best wishes,
Maurice

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2014, 10:06 PM

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.

In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 11:07 PM

Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet

In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with.
These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell ,
kinda like us

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2014, 11:28 PM

Yeah, I guess so Jim.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds.

Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot.

That is not the case today.

asomotif · 27th February 2014, 12:17 PM

I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago.
I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures.
But they give once more an impression of the blade form.

At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang.
To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum.
To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay.
(I am pretty normal working class btw)
And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-)

best regards,
Willem

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th February 2014, 01:32 PM

Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th May 2015, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections.

I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Salaams Maurice, Refering back to your post 44 ....I think from this source please see https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-coll...detail/316391/ Sorry I couldnt get a translation...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

midelburgo · 30th January 2019, 11:38 AM

Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137

I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here:

Keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Japanese:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Gavin Nugent · 4th February 2019, 09:44 PM

To add to the diversity of regions, I've a simple early old Guom of tradtional form here with a VOC blade too.

Gavin

JeffS · 28th March 2023, 10:00 AM

Another to add, similar opi to examples in post #55. This blade had deep rust and very corroded, it took a lot of work to remove. Quite the surprise to find the markings. The 1741 date can be read on both sides but the VOC logo with Amsterdam stamp mostly eroded from one side but legible on the other. This is a double edged sword, same three grooves at vase of blade as examples from Tropenmuseum. Sort of a colonial full circle with the Dutch East Indies coin from 1945...

Gavin Nugent · 28th March 2023, 11:29 PM

A vietnamese Guom with VOC blade... no blade images currently on file...

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2023, 08:31 PM

Thank you Gav and Jeff for reviving this thread!
When I began this in 2014, my goal was to learn more on the blades with VOC markings, and how widely diffused they were through the 'Indies' and Asia.
Also, I was curious on the convention of placing the year adjacent to the VOC balemark along with initial of the chamber (there were 6) of origin.
Most common was of course the 'A' for Amsterdam.

Most of these blades were hanger type, mostly on 'cutlass' type swords, it seems these were of course likely in use on the vessels. As typical these were held in arms stores and not 'issued' individually. However, their profound diffusion among native populations suggest these were often traded.

In "Arsenal of the World". J.P. Puype 1996 (pp.47-50, 'VOC Under Arms', C.O.van der Meij);
"...the VOC used edged weapons, albeit to a lesser extent. The swords that were given to sea captains were mostly ceremonial weapons. Soldiers that went to Ceylon got a backsword. These backswords were called 'pedarme' were thought to be more useful when climbing mountain (?) or marching through forests. There are by the way, various opinions about the way these swords looked".

As far as I know, there have not been examples of such an arming sword with backsword blade known with the VOC mark, so it adds to the topic of the marking of VOC on blades.

On p. 50 (Puype op. cit) it is noted that Asian weapons were highly sought as collectible by rich merchants who bought these and all kinds of exotic items as curiosities. While it is known that VOC troops never used native weapons, preferring their own European forms, it seems possible they might have traded the European edged weapons for native items. This was a common circumstance in colonial situations. As seen by most references on arms of these times, the emphasis was always on guns, and mention of edged weapons is almost incidental.

What I am curious about is why the year invariably in line with the VOC and kamer initial? The latest year I have seen is 1793 (VOC ended in 1796), the earliest 1736. In contrast, the English counterpart, their East India Co. (VEIC) never marked the blades of their edged weapons, only guns and locks (aside from bayonets) with their balemark.

I have understood these blades were either Solingen or made in Holland by perhaps German makers based there. The hilting seems to have been in Dutch shops.
There was a central warehouse at Kloveniersburgwal called East India House, as the arsenal for all weapons, but wonder if appropriate stamping of blades to each chamber was done there or in such location in chamber itself?

26th February 2014, 09:25 AM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	VOC blade @ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here. I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections. I'm not sure about the provenance of this one. A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from. I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing. As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure. Maurice Attached Images

26th February 2014, 09:53 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum". Attached Images

5th May 2014, 09:51 PM	#6
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	PS I think the VOC mark would make the item much more valuable to collect. For instance how much would you give for the lid of a chest with VOC mark, and how much would you pay for the same lid without the VOC mark? :-) Attached Images

18th May 2015, 01:04 PM	#8
Fried Krom Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: N-E of the Netherlands Posts: 3	All, Attached some pictures of my VOC boarding-cutlass. Who can identify the hilt for me? Thanks in advance, Fried Krom Attached Images

27th February 2014, 12:17 PM	#13
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago. I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures. But they give once more an impression of the blade form. At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang. To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum. To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay. (I am pretty normal working class btw) And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-) best regards, Willem Attached Images

26th February 2014, 08:20 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions. Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use. You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves. Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

5th May 2014, 06:07 PM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early! (From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg). Attached Images

18th May 2015, 04:52 PM	#9
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Hello Fried, You have a good old Batak podang with VOC blade. I have seen several podangs with VOC blade and it is always nice seeing one pop up here or there. Best wishes, Maurice

26th February 2014, 10:06 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim. My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that. Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed. But we tend to forget what wages were back then. I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won. Now tell me:- how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle? In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK. For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955. What is today's value of a keris such as I describe? Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris. In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

26th February 2014, 11:07 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with. These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell , kinda like us

26th February 2014, 11:28 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, I guess so Jim. Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds. Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot. That is not the case today.

27th February 2014, 01:32 PM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th February 2014 at 06:17 AM.

30th January 2019, 11:38 AM	#16
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137 I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here: Keris: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29 Japanese: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

4th February 2019, 09:44 PM	#17
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	To add to the diversity of regions, I've a simple early old Guom of tradtional form here with a VOC blade too. Gavin

28th March 2023, 10:00 AM	#18
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 423	Another to add, similar opi to examples in post #55. This blade had deep rust and very corroded, it took a lot of work to remove. Quite the surprise to find the markings. The 1741 date can be read on both sides but the VOC logo with Amsterdam stamp mostly eroded from one side but legible on the other. This is a double edged sword, same three grooves at vase of blade as examples from Tropenmuseum. Sort of a colonial full circle with the Dutch East Indies coin from 1945... Attached Images

28th March 2023, 11:29 PM	#19
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A vietnamese Guom with VOC blade... no blade images currently on file... Attached Images

29th March 2023, 08:31 PM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Gav and Jeff for reviving this thread! When I began this in 2014, my goal was to learn more on the blades with VOC markings, and how widely diffused they were through the 'Indies' and Asia. Also, I was curious on the convention of placing the year adjacent to the VOC balemark along with initial of the chamber (there were 6) of origin. Most common was of course the 'A' for Amsterdam. Most of these blades were hanger type, mostly on 'cutlass' type swords, it seems these were of course likely in use on the vessels. As typical these were held in arms stores and not 'issued' individually. However, their profound diffusion among native populations suggest these were often traded. In "Arsenal of the World". J.P. Puype 1996 (pp.47-50, 'VOC Under Arms', C.O.van der Meij); "...the VOC used edged weapons, albeit to a lesser extent. The swords that were given to sea captains were mostly ceremonial weapons. Soldiers that went to Ceylon got a backsword. These backswords were called 'pedarme' were thought to be more useful when climbing mountain (?) or marching through forests. There are by the way, various opinions about the way these swords looked". As far as I know, there have not been examples of such an arming sword with backsword blade known with the VOC mark, so it adds to the topic of the marking of VOC on blades. On p. 50 (Puype op. cit) it is noted that Asian weapons were highly sought as collectible by rich merchants who bought these and all kinds of exotic items as curiosities. While it is known that VOC troops never used native weapons, preferring their own European forms, it seems possible they might have traded the European edged weapons for native items. This was a common circumstance in colonial situations. As seen by most references on arms of these times, the emphasis was always on guns, and mention of edged weapons is almost incidental. What I am curious about is why the year invariably in line with the VOC and kamer initial? The latest year I have seen is 1793 (VOC ended in 1796), the earliest 1736. In contrast, the English counterpart, their East India Co. (VEIC) never marked the blades of their edged weapons, only guns and locks (aside from bayonets) with their balemark. I have understood these blades were either Solingen or made in Holland by perhaps German makers based there. The hilting seems to have been in Dutch shops. There was a central warehouse at Kloveniersburgwal called East India House, as the arsenal for all weapons, but wonder if appropriate stamping of blades to each chamber was done there or in such location in chamber itself?