VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

erikscollectables · 25th February 2014, 06:51 PM

This example had VOC marking - unfortunately no close up.
I have used the same pic twice - two is a rotated detail of the first one
Certainly was not the A(msterdam) but I think H(oorn)
Date looks like 1763 but I am not sure and I don't have the blade anymore.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2014, 11:05 PM

Thank you very much Erik, and it sounds like you were well on the way to a most promising article. With what you are saying, and I would defer to your knowledge on these weapons as these are far out of my field of study, it sounds like my thoughts on native perceptions of VOC blades are quite incorrect.

I think one of the reasons I had presumed that in Indonesian regions there would not have been the status or perception of desirability necessarily for the VOC blades is that I had thought that native made blades were far more regarded. I am unclear on whether the blades on weapons other than the keris had similar spiritual or talismanic properties, so that was part of my thought.

Also, I was not aware that native made versions of blades bearing copies of the VOC marks existed, and naturally that would well substantiate the case for these blades being considered of status if it were proven. it sounds as if the proof needed was not yet found, but I hope the research continues .

I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons...are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others?
If VOC blades were indeed considered of high status for whatever reason, could such blades, although foreign, be imbued with any such properties through ritual or ceremonial means?

I hope that these questions regarding these weapons will be met patiently with those here who are involved with their collection and study. As I have noted I am far out of my field here and my questions are meant to better understand the circumstances concerning these weapons.

A. G. Maisey · 25th February 2014, 11:51 PM

Jim, insofar as Jawa & Bali are concerned, any weapon, indeed any object, including cooking pots, stirrups, buckles, walking sticks and a vast array of other objects, including farmland, can be regarded as "pusaka" and be considered to hold some of the properties of a keris that come from being pusaka. Such associated properties would include elements of ancestor worship and as status markers.

However, only the keris as pusaka possesses the special properties of cosmic symbolism and unification. Only the keris is a required part of formal dress.

I do not doubt for one moment that indigenous smiths in the old Indies made VOC marked blades, both for use by VOC personnel, and in some cases to provide additional talismanic content in the form of the VOC symbol. Indigenous Maritime South East Asian belief systems tend to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, so if a new source of power came upon the scene it was thought to be a good idea to include the symbolism of the new power along with the existing symbolism. This line of thought was particularly so in Jawa. For that matter, it still applies in Jawa with a segment of the population.

David · 25th February 2014, 11:56 PM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons…are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? [/QUOTE]
I would say yes Jim. The cultural relationship might not be exactly the same as the keris, but Tosan Aji as a sacred heirloom weapon extends to many different kinds of blades in the region.

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 04:02 AM

Thank you so much Alan for that perfectly detailed explanation and that is important to know in evaluating the presence of VOC blades in various weapons throughout these regions. Actually that does make good sense in noting that the VOC symbol may well have been added to existing elements in their beliefs and symbolism.
I had forgotten that in many cases symbols and markings from outside sources, such as trade blades into colonial settings in India, North Africa etc. were indeed adopted into native perceptions and seen as talismanic and or imbuements of power and quality.
The great part of these kinds of discussions is learning!
Thank you as well David for your response.

Maurice · 26th February 2014, 09:25 AM

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections.

I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 08:20 PM

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

asomotif · 26th February 2014, 09:53 PM

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2014, 10:06 PM

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.

In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th May 2015, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections.

I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Salaams Maurice, Refering back to your post 44 ....I think from this source please see https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-coll...detail/316391/ Sorry I couldnt get a translation...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

midelburgo · 30th January 2019, 11:38 AM

Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137

I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here:

Keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Japanese:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

26th February 2014, 09:25 AM	#6
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	VOC blade @ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here. I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections. I'm not sure about the provenance of this one. A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from. I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing. As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure. Maurice Attached Images

26th February 2014, 09:53 PM	#8
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum". Attached Images

25th February 2014, 06:51 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	This example had VOC marking - unfortunately no close up. I have used the same pic twice - two is a rotated detail of the first one Certainly was not the A(msterdam) but I think H(oorn) Date looks like 1763 but I am not sure and I don't have the blade anymore.

25th February 2014, 11:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you very much Erik, and it sounds like you were well on the way to a most promising article. With what you are saying, and I would defer to your knowledge on these weapons as these are far out of my field of study, it sounds like my thoughts on native perceptions of VOC blades are quite incorrect. I think one of the reasons I had presumed that in Indonesian regions there would not have been the status or perception of desirability necessarily for the VOC blades is that I had thought that native made blades were far more regarded. I am unclear on whether the blades on weapons other than the keris had similar spiritual or talismanic properties, so that was part of my thought. Also, I was not aware that native made versions of blades bearing copies of the VOC marks existed, and naturally that would well substantiate the case for these blades being considered of status if it were proven. it sounds as if the proof needed was not yet found, but I hope the research continues . I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons...are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? If VOC blades were indeed considered of high status for whatever reason, could such blades, although foreign, be imbued with any such properties through ritual or ceremonial means? I hope that these questions regarding these weapons will be met patiently with those here who are involved with their collection and study. As I have noted I am far out of my field here and my questions are meant to better understand the circumstances concerning these weapons.

25th February 2014, 11:51 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jim, insofar as Jawa & Bali are concerned, any weapon, indeed any object, including cooking pots, stirrups, buckles, walking sticks and a vast array of other objects, including farmland, can be regarded as "pusaka" and be considered to hold some of the properties of a keris that come from being pusaka. Such associated properties would include elements of ancestor worship and as status markers. However, only the keris as pusaka possesses the special properties of cosmic symbolism and unification. Only the keris is a required part of formal dress. I do not doubt for one moment that indigenous smiths in the old Indies made VOC marked blades, both for use by VOC personnel, and in some cases to provide additional talismanic content in the form of the VOC symbol. Indigenous Maritime South East Asian belief systems tend to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, so if a new source of power came upon the scene it was thought to be a good idea to include the symbolism of the new power along with the existing symbolism. This line of thought was particularly so in Jawa. For that matter, it still applies in Jawa with a segment of the population.

25th February 2014, 11:56 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons…are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? [/QUOTE] I would say yes Jim. The cultural relationship might not be exactly the same as the keris, but Tosan Aji as a sacred heirloom weapon extends to many different kinds of blades in the region.

26th February 2014, 04:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much Alan for that perfectly detailed explanation and that is important to know in evaluating the presence of VOC blades in various weapons throughout these regions. Actually that does make good sense in noting that the VOC symbol may well have been added to existing elements in their beliefs and symbolism. I had forgotten that in many cases symbols and markings from outside sources, such as trade blades into colonial settings in India, North Africa etc. were indeed adopted into native perceptions and seen as talismanic and or imbuements of power and quality. The great part of these kinds of discussions is learning! Thank you as well David for your response.

26th February 2014, 08:20 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions. Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use. You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves. Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

26th February 2014, 10:06 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim. My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that. Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed. But we tend to forget what wages were back then. I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won. Now tell me:- how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle? In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK. For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955. What is today's value of a keris such as I describe? Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris. In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

30th January 2019, 11:38 AM	#11
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137 I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here: Keris: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29 Japanese: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29