VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Maurice, A quick note from my perspective as this is an important picture showing a group of Mudalyars and what looks like a personal guard on the right with Kastane drawn in salute and with the envoy carrying the letter...... the other members of the entourage being fan carriers and servants possibly to the head Mudalyer who has shoes! Those with a sash are depicted in their Kastane hanging to the left side .. Various others are guards variously with guns and spears.

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your input. But I have to debunk your perspective according the people standing in the left.
The text I've added about the drawing had been written by the drawer himself, Jan Brandes in a book.
The ones in the left are definately the Singalese employed by the VOC. I've seen those kind of blue clothing also on other images from Jan Brandes.
These style of jackets (if that's the right name) are a bit like the Dutch VOC people carried.

About the people on the right side you're correct, as I also have been written before.
PS.: I don't have any knowledge about them nor kastanes etc. I just transferred the text from the guy who had made the drawing almost 250 years ago.

Probably the people in the other kastane thread you're referring to, are still using the fashion of the blue VOC jackets hundreds of years ago?

Regards,
Maurice

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your input. But I have to debunk your perspective according the people standing in the left.
The text I've added about the drawing had been written by the drawer himself, Jan Brandes in a book.
The ones in the left are definately the Singalese employed by the VOC. I've seen those kind of blue clothing also on other images from Jan Brandes.
These style of jackets (if that's the right name) are a bit like the Dutch VOC people carried.

About the people on the right side you're correct, as I also have been written before.
PS.: I don't have any knowledge about them nor kastanes etc. I just transferred the text from the guy who had made the drawing almost 250 years ago.

Probably the people in the other kastane thread you're referring to, are still using the fashion of the blue VOC jackets hundreds of years ago?

Regards,
Maurice

Salaams Maurice Its a great drawing but... The chaps to the left are wearing sash and sword..Kastane. They are Mudalyars. They are the middle aristocracy and officers of the beaurocracy ... head civil servants/officers... through whom the Dutch did their bidding. I think however that we are speaking the same language since they were Sri Lankan and working essentially for the Dutch... and a few years after no doubt for the English.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Maurice Its a great drawing but... The chaps to the left are wearing sash and sword..Kastane. They are Mudalyars. They are the middle aristocracy and officers of the beaurocracy ... head civil servants/officers... through whom the Dutch did their bidding. I think however that we are speaking the same language since they were Sri Lankan and working essentially for the Dutch... and a few years after no doubt for the English.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

OK thank you for noticing. I really didn't know they were, all I could get from the text was that they were natives, but employed by the VOC.

I'll post more on the subject later..

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Before we are looking and discussing at the VOC stamps on swordblades, it might be usefull to look on what other items these marks are found.

I've added some images: A VOC latern, dated between 1700-1800; A longgun with the VOC stamp of Amsterdam, dated between 1725-1798; A pistol, dated around 1780, with stamp VOC IH or HI; A VOC canon, stamped VOC A, dated 1667; A lawchair used in Ambon in 1709, with VOC A stamp and date 1709; on VOC coins; Chest with VOC and date 1728 at the back; On boxes, like we can see at the drawing ca. 1770 of a Chinese trading store; On little boxes as seen on a drawing of a cabin on a VOC ship, dated 1785-1786.

PS.: all are from a Dutch museum, and not from some kind of private collections!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Ibrahiim,

OK thank you for noticing. I really didn't know they were, all I could get from the text was that they were natives, but employed by the VOC.

I'll post more on the subject later..

Regards,
Maurice

Salaams Maurice.. Great pictures like yours are a pleasure to see on thread.. and underpins an awful lot of research and interest... thank you. I note several points which you will probably be aware of ... The wonderful Dutch Chest which we see several similar in Oman...and the box containers marked VOC with A over the top meaning Amsterdam. The odd dish hanging on the doctors ships cabin wall being for shaving thus the shape and oriental floral design from the Dutch Chinese or Japanese connnections.... Batavia meaning the present day Jakarta marked on the coinage.

The early example of a lion with sword carved into the chair is "interesting."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Maurice and Ibrahiim, thank you guys so much for all these images and the excellent context they bring into the discussion! and Kai, Willem and Sajen than you for the outstanding support here. Indeed this is an exciting topic which can give us all a better understanding of the diffusion of these blades through these regions and the history that surrounded them! Great discussion!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The early example of a lion with sword carved into the chair is "interesting."

The Dutch Lion is a symbol of heraldry.
Allready in the earliest heraldry works we find lions, symbol of strength, on weapon shields.

Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Maurice

The Dutch Lion is a symbol of heraldry.
Allready in the earliest heraldry works we find lions, symbol of strength, on weapon shields.

Maurice

Good point Maurice, and important to note here that representation of animals in a totemic sense extends to prehistoric times, and often individuals and later clans adopted the image of various creatures as their own symbolically . Totemic symbolism was well known in many cultures and the use of these symbols in a heraldic sense was used by many nomadic tribes such as the Scythians, and of course the Celts, Vikings and others used such imagery in the same manner.

Medieval heraldry used mythical beasts in the same manner in Europe as the mythical creatures used in many ethnographic cultures.

One of the fascinating features of the kasthane, in fact probably the key element, is the identification of the creatures represented on its hilt, and compelling parallels with various European hilts.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Medieval heraldry used mythical beasts in the same manner in Europe as the mythical creatures used in many ethnographic cultures.

Just as a point of interest Jim, ethnographic studies are not limited to non-European cultures. Any culture can be studied in this manner.