silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)

Sajen · 26th May 2013, 02:17 PM

Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 26th May 2013, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef and Jose,
The kris shown on the right of the picture has a recent sheath and hilt IMO, see another specimen with a similar embedded silver wire decoration on the bottom part of the gandar (not Sulawesi Bugis but rather from Bali/ Lombok or Sumbawa?). However this style of decoration seems a bit less recent than the spiral wires and flowers seen on the sheath shown by Mykeris. But other opinions are welcome!

Regards

David · 26th May 2013, 05:39 PM

Frankly, the work on this first example that MyKeris posted looks like a hot mess. The workmanship is really poor on this piece, no where near the quality of this older example that Jean has just posted. It is also far too much in regards to style. I much prefer the understated and more elegant effect of this last example.

Battara · 27th May 2013, 12:13 AM

Thank you all folks! What I can partially conclude is that the earlier toli-tolis are not chased but wire filigree in all the work.

I like the last example posted, and that has better craftsmanship. It has silver filigree all over instead of chasing and embossing, which I admit is more difficult in this case.

I hope I am correct in my analysis of the metal work of the earlier toli-toli.

Another question: does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?

mykeris · 27th May 2013, 02:31 AM

here some samples I manged to pick up from a blog. Sure, the best.

David, I think you should survey more.

mykeris · 27th May 2013, 02:35 AM

The one posted by Jean is about 30 years old, considered cool.

David · 27th May 2013, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

David, I think you should survey more.

I'm willing to survey as many as people care to post MyKeris, but that won't change my opinion about the one you originally posted.

These last two that you posted are of a much finer craft.

That very last one you posted seems quite unusual in style Eric, but i really like the workmanship. When do you suppose this one was made?

Battara · 27th May 2013, 06:03 AM

Lovely examples. I guess it is only the quality and not the style that determines age?

Otherwise, this is getting more confusing (the state where I live

)

Naga Sasra · 27th May 2013, 02:37 AM

Hello everyone,
I have attached photos of two pieces with toli-toli, One is of a more recent make and one is quite old.
I believe we would be hasty to conclude that earlier toli-tolis are not either chased or embossed, but wire filigree. As always things are not always what they seem top be, especially when it comes to keris.
regards,
Erik

David · 27th May 2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

...does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?

Though i don't mind the beauty pageant displays of fine craftsmanship here i would love to see us get into some deeper questions about toli-toli in regards to how they fit into the social structure of the keris culture of that area.It seems that new toli-toli are simply being added to dress these days for commercial purposes, attracting buyers to the fancy, shiny bobbles. I am much more interested in the original intent of this aspect of dress, who could wear it when and why. While some of the more modern made toli-toli are indeed well crafted and beautiful they just don't seem appropriate or special anymore. What is the point of a king's crown when everybody is wearing one?

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2013, 11:56 PM

David, I'm running on memory here, and I read the source some months ago, so I could be incorrect, but in the book on Bugis keris that came out a while ago I seem to recall that the reason given for the use of toli2 was that when somebody came into the presence of the ruler, the toli2 needed to be in place , and if it were not in place, the offending person got whacked right there with no questions asked.

Effectively it was to ensure that a succession by assassination did not occur.

There might have been subsidiary reasons also given, but what I seem to remember is what I have written. Anybody who has this book can check it easily.

I cannot check this book at the moment, as I have lent it a friend.

In fact, I have never seen an old example of one of these lavish toli2, the only ones I've ever seen have been made from plain, soft cord. I've seen a couple of pics of the extravagant work of art ones that were probably a bit old, but I've never the real thing in front of me.

Naga Sasra · 28th May 2013, 12:12 AM

The first example is of a very recent make, I picked it up in 1998, and it was purchased in and shipped from Lombok. The second example with the kinatah emas blade is different in that is has some age to it, it is estimated to have been made early to mid-20th century. I purchased it privately from a Canadian collection.
The recent pieces seem to start showing up on the market in the late part of the last century, and just checking EBay and others, they are not hard to find in various qualities.
In a much earlier post we were informed of the spiritual meaning of the Toli Toil and also advised that the correct name is “Passiosumange” which means ring of spirit. There is a belief that the wearer of the keris with Passiosumange attached will have a greater sense of what is happening in his area/home land. It is also noted that it is a symbol of high status.
However, the ornament is also called Tuli Tuli and also Tuli Tuli Batir Batir. This is translated in the Malay – English dictionary as follows;
Batir Batir, the golden band used to fasten the keris scabbard to the belt. Note: This band which is stiff and shaped like a hoop, is attached to the scabbard and is really more for ornament than for use. In the Malay Peninsula the term Tuli Tuli is used.
As for the original intent, it has been suggested that is a symbol of high status in society, which carry some logic with me, as the finer and more expensive materials used, the finer garap employed, the higher the price thus eliminating most people. I did see a photo of a pair of newlywed where the male had a keris with Toli Toli and will as such suggest it is worn for ceremonial purposes as well.
Perhaps some of our fellow forum members from the Malay world can expand on the true purpose and its original intent.
Regards,
Erik

mykeris · 28th May 2013, 03:36 PM

After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum.

26th May 2013, 02:17 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

27th May 2013, 02:31 AM	#5
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	here some samples I manged to pick up from a blog. Sure, the best. David, I think you should survey more. Attached Images

27th May 2013, 02:37 AM	#9
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Hello everyone, I have attached photos of two pieces with toli-toli, One is of a more recent make and one is quite old. I believe we would be hasty to conclude that earlier toli-tolis are not either chased or embossed, but wire filigree. As always things are not always what they seem top be, especially when it comes to keris. regards, Erik Attached Images

26th May 2013, 05:39 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Frankly, the work on this first example that MyKeris posted looks like a hot mess. The workmanship is really poor on this piece, no where near the quality of this older example that Jean has just posted. It is also far too much in regards to style. I much prefer the understated and more elegant effect of this last example.

27th May 2013, 12:13 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thank you all folks! What I can partially conclude is that the earlier toli-tolis are not chased but wire filigree in all the work. I like the last example posted, and that has better craftsmanship. It has silver filigree all over instead of chasing and embossing, which I admit is more difficult in this case. I hope I am correct in my analysis of the metal work of the earlier toli-toli. Another question: does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?

27th May 2013, 02:35 AM	#6
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	The one posted by Jean is about 30 years old, considered cool.

27th May 2013, 06:03 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Lovely examples. I guess it is only the quality and not the style that determines age? Otherwise, this is getting more confusing (the state where I live )

27th May 2013, 11:56 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	David, I'm running on memory here, and I read the source some months ago, so I could be incorrect, but in the book on Bugis keris that came out a while ago I seem to recall that the reason given for the use of toli2 was that when somebody came into the presence of the ruler, the toli2 needed to be in place , and if it were not in place, the offending person got whacked right there with no questions asked. Effectively it was to ensure that a succession by assassination did not occur. There might have been subsidiary reasons also given, but what I seem to remember is what I have written. Anybody who has this book can check it easily. I cannot check this book at the moment, as I have lent it a friend. In fact, I have never seen an old example of one of these lavish toli2, the only ones I've ever seen have been made from plain, soft cord. I've seen a couple of pics of the extravagant work of art ones that were probably a bit old, but I've never the real thing in front of me.

28th May 2013, 12:12 AM	#12
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	The first example is of a very recent make, I picked it up in 1998, and it was purchased in and shipped from Lombok. The second example with the kinatah emas blade is different in that is has some age to it, it is estimated to have been made early to mid-20th century. I purchased it privately from a Canadian collection. The recent pieces seem to start showing up on the market in the late part of the last century, and just checking EBay and others, they are not hard to find in various qualities. In a much earlier post we were informed of the spiritual meaning of the Toli Toil and also advised that the correct name is “Passiosumange” which means ring of spirit. There is a belief that the wearer of the keris with Passiosumange attached will have a greater sense of what is happening in his area/home land. It is also noted that it is a symbol of high status. However, the ornament is also called Tuli Tuli and also Tuli Tuli Batir Batir. This is translated in the Malay – English dictionary as follows; Batir Batir, the golden band used to fasten the keris scabbard to the belt. Note: This band which is stiff and shaped like a hoop, is attached to the scabbard and is really more for ornament than for use. In the Malay Peninsula the term Tuli Tuli is used. As for the original intent, it has been suggested that is a symbol of high status in society, which carry some logic with me, as the finer and more expensive materials used, the finer garap employed, the higher the price thus eliminating most people. I did see a photo of a pair of newlywed where the male had a keris with Toli Toli and will as such suggest it is worn for ceremonial purposes as well. Perhaps some of our fellow forum members from the Malay world can expand on the true purpose and its original intent. Regards, Erik

28th May 2013, 03:36 PM	#13
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum.