Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls) (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17269)

mykeris 21st May 2013 12:41 PM

silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)
 
4 Attachment(s)
saw this in one of the auction sites (auction completed).
So beautiful.Mykeris :)

Jean 22nd May 2013 05:10 PM

Hello Mykeris,
This style of fancily decorated silver sheath or pendok is a recent fashion, and it is applied to both Bugis and balinese style krisses.... Don't regret it, you can easily find similar pieces on the market if you wish so. :)
Regards

mykeris 23rd May 2013 12:40 AM

Hi Jean, how much does it cost in Bali? :) I am looking for one. Appreciate if you dont mind showing me pic. samples. TQ.

David 23rd May 2013 01:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykeris
Hi Jean, how much does it cost in Bali? :) I am looking for one. Appreciate if you dont mind showing me pic. samples. TQ.

This is definitely not the place to discuss the cost of such things...

mykeris 23rd May 2013 01:52 AM

Sorry David, kindly ignore earlier posting Jean. :)

Jean 23rd May 2013 08:48 AM

Hello Mykeris,
If I notice such a piece for sale I will contact you by private message. Other members may have noted it also and propose you something. :)
Regards

mykeris 23rd May 2013 09:40 AM

Very kind of you Jean. Regards..Mykeris.

Battara 23rd May 2013 10:56 PM

So if I understand right, toli-tolis like this one are recent. What do older toli-tolis look like?

Sajen 23rd May 2013 11:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
So if I understand right, toli-tolis like this one are recent. What do older toli-tolis look like?



Hello Jose,

will try to take pictures from the book Senjata Pusaka Bugis at weekend.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean 25th May 2013 08:45 AM

Hello Detlef and Jose,
In this book only 2 silver toli-toli are shown and at least one of them is recent. You can see nice and old gold specimens in the books "Keris" from Dr Hamzuri (pusakas from the Jakarta Museum) and "Courts of Indonesia" by Helen Jessup.
Regards

Sajen 26th May 2013 02:17 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean 26th May 2013 04:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.

Regards,

Detlef


Hello Detlef and Jose,
The kris shown on the right of the picture has a recent sheath and hilt IMO, see another specimen with a similar embedded silver wire decoration on the bottom part of the gandar (not Sulawesi Bugis but rather from Bali/ Lombok or Sumbawa?). However this style of decoration seems a bit less recent than the spiral wires and flowers seen on the sheath shown by Mykeris. But other opinions are welcome! :)
Regards

David 26th May 2013 05:39 PM

Frankly, the work on this first example that MyKeris posted looks like a hot mess. The workmanship is really poor on this piece, no where near the quality of this older example that Jean has just posted. It is also far too much in regards to style. I much prefer the understated and more elegant effect of this last example.
:shrug:

Battara 27th May 2013 12:13 AM

Thank you all folks! What I can partially conclude is that the earlier toli-tolis are not chased but wire filigree in all the work.

I like the last example posted, and that has better craftsmanship. It has silver filigree all over instead of chasing and embossing, which I admit is more difficult in this case.

I hope I am correct in my analysis of the metal work of the earlier toli-toli.


Another question: does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?

mykeris 27th May 2013 02:31 AM

2 Attachment(s)
here some samples I manged to pick up from a blog. Sure, the best. :) David, I think you should survey more. :)

mykeris 27th May 2013 02:35 AM

The one posted by Jean is about 30 years old, considered cool. :)

Naga Sasra 27th May 2013 02:37 AM

10 Attachment(s)
Hello everyone,
I have attached photos of two pieces with toli-toli, One is of a more recent make and one is quite old.
I believe we would be hasty to conclude that earlier toli-tolis are not either chased or embossed, but wire filigree. As always things are not always what they seem top be, especially when it comes to keris.
regards,
Erik

David 27th May 2013 05:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykeris
David, I think you should survey more. :)

I'm willing to survey as many as people care to post MyKeris, but that won't change my opinion about the one you originally posted. :shrug:
These last two that you posted are of a much finer craft. :)
That very last one you posted seems quite unusual in style Eric, but i really like the workmanship. When do you suppose this one was made?

Battara 27th May 2013 06:03 AM

Lovely examples. I guess it is only the quality and not the style that determines age?

Otherwise, this is getting more confusing (the state where I live :confused: )

mykeris 27th May 2013 06:17 AM

Thanks David, hope to get more old samples from the others, tq in advance, :)

mykeris 27th May 2013 06:20 AM

I like the one you posted Erik. Looks genuine 1900s.

David 27th May 2013 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
...does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?

Though i don't mind the beauty pageant displays of fine craftsmanship here i would love to see us get into some deeper questions about toli-toli in regards to how they fit into the social structure of the keris culture of that area.It seems that new toli-toli are simply being added to dress these days for commercial purposes, attracting buyers to the fancy, shiny bobbles. I am much more interested in the original intent of this aspect of dress, who could wear it when and why. While some of the more modern made toli-toli are indeed well crafted and beautiful they just don't seem appropriate or special anymore. What is the point of a king's crown when everybody is wearing one? :shrug:

A. G. Maisey 27th May 2013 11:56 PM

David, I'm running on memory here, and I read the source some months ago, so I could be incorrect, but in the book on Bugis keris that came out a while ago I seem to recall that the reason given for the use of toli2 was that when somebody came into the presence of the ruler, the toli2 needed to be in place , and if it were not in place, the offending person got whacked right there with no questions asked.

Effectively it was to ensure that a succession by assassination did not occur.

There might have been subsidiary reasons also given, but what I seem to remember is what I have written. Anybody who has this book can check it easily.

I cannot check this book at the moment, as I have lent it a friend.

In fact, I have never seen an old example of one of these lavish toli2, the only ones I've ever seen have been made from plain, soft cord. I've seen a couple of pics of the extravagant work of art ones that were probably a bit old, but I've never the real thing in front of me.

Naga Sasra 28th May 2013 12:12 AM

The first example is of a very recent make, I picked it up in 1998, and it was purchased in and shipped from Lombok. The second example with the kinatah emas blade is different in that is has some age to it, it is estimated to have been made early to mid-20th century. I purchased it privately from a Canadian collection.
The recent pieces seem to start showing up on the market in the late part of the last century, and just checking EBay and others, they are not hard to find in various qualities.
In a much earlier post we were informed of the spiritual meaning of the Toli Toil and also advised that the correct name is “Passiosumange” which means ring of spirit. There is a belief that the wearer of the keris with Passiosumange attached will have a greater sense of what is happening in his area/home land. It is also noted that it is a symbol of high status.
However, the ornament is also called Tuli Tuli and also Tuli Tuli Batir Batir. This is translated in the Malay – English dictionary as follows;
Batir Batir, the golden band used to fasten the keris scabbard to the belt. Note: This band which is stiff and shaped like a hoop, is attached to the scabbard and is really more for ornament than for use. In the Malay Peninsula the term Tuli Tuli is used.
As for the original intent, it has been suggested that is a symbol of high status in society, which carry some logic with me, as the finer and more expensive materials used, the finer garap employed, the higher the price thus eliminating most people. I did see a photo of a pair of newlywed where the male had a keris with Toli Toli and will as such suggest it is worn for ceremonial purposes as well.
Perhaps some of our fellow forum members from the Malay world can expand on the true purpose and its original intent.
Regards,
Erik

mykeris 28th May 2013 03:36 PM

After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum. :) :)

David 28th May 2013 05:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykeris
After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum. :) :)

You give up too easily here MyKeris. I am not yet convinced that it is not possible to determine old and "genuine" versions of toli-toli from the flood of new ones that are now all over the web. Right now on eBay i see just the toli-toli for sale as a separate item so that one can simply buy it as an upgrade attachment to your current ensemble. Somehow this seems wrong-headed to me, simply a way to embellish a keris to command more resale value from it. To my mind these kind of thoughtless upgrades are counter to the entire concept of ethnographic collection.
The explanation that Alan puts forth is one that i have indeed heard before and it does make some kind of logical sense. Of course, if that is the case it makes me wonder exactly when this protocol was in place in the palace since Eric's older example is a stylized version that would not allow practical application of the toli-toli (still pretty slick looking though, innit? ;) ). I would also be really interested in knowing what societal level within the culture would wear these. If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris. :shrug:

mykeris 29th May 2013 07:09 AM

Thanks David, I will certainly follow future postings in this forum. You know why? ...Because you people talk facts and logic. TQ again. :)

Jean 29th May 2013 06:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris. :shrug:


Hello David,
I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market. :)
Best regards

Sajen 29th May 2013 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hello David,
I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market. :)
Best regards


Beautiful keris Jean! :eek:

Jean 29th May 2013 08:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Beautiful keris Jean! :eek:


Thanks Detlef. I bought this piece from a Bugis family established in Kalimantan, as you can see the blade is probably from Sumatra but I did not notice it at that time! :D
Regards


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