Saudia Jambiya for Identification

[Jim McDougall]

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

Salaams Jim McDougall..I thank you for your post.

It is always very interesting to be confronted with the occasional mission impossible to identify an object which seems to defy logic and throws the search this way and that...I for one have been wrong footed a couple of times in cracking this particular nut. I start again by reiterating the last paragraph in my previous post ~

As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

First, there is no need to assume that this thread was made for a purpose other then discussing the origin of this particular item.

I have posted the 3 second video knowing and meaning what it represent. There is no need to blame anything on Stu. What I meant by the video is just that, a facepalm. I have replied showing 2 daggers from Saudi of which the reply to came "they are not Omani" with all due respect that facepalm video is the least one can do to such a silly reply. If you are offended by it then so be it.

Both me and Stu post items for discussion and welcome Ibrahim's opinions but he should have the decency NOT to consider his opinions as facts. Some of the stuff he says defy logic but its pushed every topic as sacred fact and that is extremely frustrating.

[Jim McDougall]

Points well taken Lofty, and duly noted. As I had suggested, lets keep the discussion focused on material at hand and observations accordingly. I also think we can offer rebuttal to anyones observations with constructive support without derisive context. I think it is pretty much generally held that any observation or theory is subject to opposing views and new or often conflicting evidence regardless of whether it is perceived as fact or compellingly plausible. In my opinion the courtesy is incumbent on the manner in which that is achieved.
I very much appreciate the items posted and learned input of everyone here, and as noted, think we can keep discussions more helpful without the derisively textured comments.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All Note to Forum See The Omani Khanjar #17. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

Below are placed more references showing the style of weapon from The Asir region.. Oddly these daggers are called Habaabi in Oman and although this may be because of sea trade (Muscat Yemen Zanzibar) it is still a point shrouded in mystery. Hababi is a city SOUTH WEST of Ta'izz well to the South of the Asir and in Yemen..About midway between Ta'izz and the Red Sea.

The indicators are that this dagger is worn on both sides of the border in Yemen and Saudia. That region was recently (about 1920) absorbed into Saudia from what was then North Yemen.

It is noted that these daggers are very similar in design to Omani Khanjars of several styles including The Muscat Khanjar and The Royal Omani Khanjar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5512947198

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4336633417

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340287

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340299

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4318547823

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional references and observations Ibrahiim. It seems to me that efforts to 'pidgeon hole' classification terminology with most ethnographic weapon forms becomes terribly vague altogether too often.
Clearly certain forms develop within certain cultures and over time develop varying characteristics with different influences diffused into them. Through trade and cultural and geopolitical flux it becomes more and more difficult to classify examples to particular regions with absolute certainty.

One of the greatest banes of ethnographic study has always, as far as I have known, been the 'name game', and often it becomes necessary to add, in my opinion, qualifying detail to descriptions. I think one of the fascinating things about Arabian weapons, like many other cultures, is the varying locally used terms for certain weapons. Until a few years ago, I had always assumed the familiar daggers which I know now are khanjhars, were all called janbiyyas. Clearly, in local parlances there are many terms used to define these further, and until reading this thread I had no idea of the term 'habaabi' for a particular form of khanjhar.

I would think that with modified examples, traded items, custom or variant pieces and so forth with a traditionally contemporary item such as these, it would be difficult to classify many examples finitely within a certain regional classification. This would especially be the case when the example is obviously an amalgam of features from varying established types.
Though it is sometimes troublesome for many to use compound descriptions to accurately classify such weapons, it seems to me the only responsible and viable approach.

In all, good learning exercise here everybody, its good to keep the learning curve moving!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the additional references and observations Ibrahiim. It seems to me that efforts to 'pidgeon hole' classification terminology with most ethnographic weapon forms becomes terribly vague altogether too often.
Clearly certain forms develop within certain cultures and over time develop varying characteristics with different influences diffused into them. Through trade and cultural and geopolitical flux it becomes more and more difficult to classify examples to particular regions with absolute certainty.

One of the greatest banes of ethnographic study has always, as far as I have known, been the 'name game', and often it becomes necessary to add, in my opinion, qualifying detail to descriptions. I think one of the fascinating things about Arabian weapons, like many other cultures, is the varying locally used terms for certain weapons. Until a few years ago, I had always assumed the familiar daggers which I know now are Khanjhars, were all called janbiyyas. Clearly, in local parlances there are many terms used to define these further, and until reading this thread I had no idea of the term 'habaabi' for a particular form of khanjhar.

I would think that with modified examples, traded items, custom or variant pieces and so forth with a traditionally contemporary item such as these, it would be difficult to classify many examples finitely within a certain regional classification. This would especially be the case when the example is obviously an amalgam of features from varying established types.
Though it is sometimes troublesome for many to use compound descriptions to accurately classify such weapons, it seems to me the only responsible and viable approach.

In all, good learning exercise here everybody, its good to keep the learning curve moving!

Salaams Jim, Thanks for the important detail. I add this late point ~In placing the subject of Asir and Omani daggers in the think tank one very important aspect has emerged and is covered on The Omani Khanjar http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...619#post153619 at #79 which throws the question wide open as to what the linkage is between the two systems.

This phenomena ..."Weapons Jambia/Khanjars in the Asir" and both sides of the Yemeni / Saudia border are an almost exact mirror of The Omani Khanjars called
1.Muscat Khanjars (With a tee shaped hilt and 7 rings) and
2.Royal Khanjars(with the fancy Sheherazad 1850 hilt and 7 rings) SEE NOTE*...

This a real puzzle not only because of the 1920s border re-alignment making these now Saudia variants (before that Yemeni) but also because of the almost screamingly obvious trade link between there and Muscat and Zanzibar in the period of that intermixiture.. in the 19th C.

So far as I can determine;
1. No other Saudia daggers look like these Omani weapons.
2. No other Yemeni daggers look like these Omani weapons.

For reasons unknown to anyone they have this peculiar name Habaabi.

The Asir variants are called Habaabi by Omanis, thus, logically seem to attribute that name to Hababi in Yemen. The only other supect for that name may be a tribal group in what is now the Asir... I've looked, searched, questioned and puzzled... but find it I cannot.

It is like several undetermined facts placed on Forum; so that perhaps another researcher may dig up the truth later.

I asked our local souk Yemeni shop owner what he called these daggers and he blinked...looked at me as if I was soft in the head... and said in a bemused way "Habaabi" . Regretably he knew nought about its provenance. I have therefor stuck the pin in the donkeys tail quite expecting to be kicked but it leaves the door open for someone else to "bring it on".

What is very important for me is to unearth the exact transition~ either Oman to Yemen or Yemen to Oman of this specific styling. No one has done it yet... we have the possibility of a groundbreaking discovery because mine is only hypothesis so who will take up the cudgel?...Who will run with the ball and help solve this one? Much of the groundwork is on The Omani Khanjar but it's open to constructive criticism. Any lurkers out there ? HELLO !!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

NOTE* I seek clarification on the fact that the Muscat Dagger has a scabbard that is identical to the Royal Khanjar but has a TEE Shaped hilt. Did the Royal Khanjar influence The Muscat Khanjar or was it already like that pre Sheherazad...Pre 1850... On top of that comes the Asir configuration which needs to be rooted out... another Museum task.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ! In answer to my own querries above~

(ABHA... HABAABI...MEANING "OF THE" ABHA REGION.)

The earlier of the two daggers The Muscat / The Royal Omani sa'idiyyah khanjar appeared in that order. The second was designed by a previous Sultans wife the infamous Sheherezad. A Persian Princess. It is known that the only part of the design that was changed was the Hilt... The rest of it is as per the Muscat Khanjar WHICH HAD 7 RINGS...thus the two are linked both in place and in design. She also designed the Royal Turban and Camerbund.

The guestimate on date is around 1840/1850.

Regarding the Habaabi weapon which is almost identical to THE MUSCAT KHANJAR it is considered that the name Abha is the city name central to that region of which Jazan is the Red Sea Port. Abha... or items eminating from it...are called 'Abhaabi or Habaabi. (probably the correct pronunciation is aspirated like habhaabi but I will avoid that )
The region as you may discover at the maps below has a Yemeni feel to it since it was Yemen before about 1920..1923...The weapon clearly emigrated into the area since it was on the main Muscat-Zanzibar trade route. Slight variations were made but essentially it is the same weapon...You could say slightly hybridised even...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

See #2 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18570 for a modification to the influence of Omani Khanjars in the Asir region.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.