Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Saudia Jambiya for Identification (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16834)

kahnjar1 15th February 2013 07:13 PM

Saudia Jambiya for Identification
 
2 Attachment(s)
This Jambiya was previously identified as "Habaabi" but since "Habaabi", if it actually exists, now appears to be located in Yemen (see thread Yemeni Sayfs, Omani Kattaras), I doubt that this is the case. The jambiya is not typical of Yemeni items but more like other Saudia items.
Comments please.

T. Koch 16th February 2013 09:20 AM

Hi Stu, sorry no input as to your question, but I can't help but give your dagger two thumbs up!

To my eyes, it is one of the most beautiful jambiyas I've ever seen! Love the silverwork. From the enclosed pictures, the hilt looks to be rhinoceros? Normally, I'm not so much into the darker rhino types, would then rather prefer buffalo, but in this case it just goes so very well together with the dark scabbard and the silverwork. Very sexy! :)

Thanks for sharing!


All the best, - Thor

kahnjar1 16th February 2013 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Koch
Hi Stu, sorry no input as to your question, but I can't help but give your dagger two thumbs up!

To my eyes, it is one of the most beautiful jambiyas I've ever seen! Love the silverwork. From the enclosed pictures, the hilt looks to be rhinoceros? Normally, I'm not so much into the darker rhino types, would then rather prefer buffalo, but in this case it just goes so very well together with the dark scabbard and the silverwork. Very sexy! :)

Thanks for sharing!


All the best, - Thor

Hi Thor,
Thanks for comments. Yes it is Rhino.
Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 16th February 2013 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
This Jambiya was previously identified as "Habaabi" but since "Habaabi", if it actually exists, now appears to be located in Yemen (see thread Yemeni Sayfs, Omani Kattaras), I doubt that this is the case. The jambiya is not typical of Yemeni items but more like other Saudia items.
Comments please.




Salaams kahnjar1 This was indeed identified as Habaabi. The silver decoration on the hilt is a chief indicator to hilts of that style. On the other hand the silver has a deeper lustre and I would have thought Omani initially... perhaps even Salalah. Oddly it has an Omani looking blade but only 2 rings. The use of Rhino on this style would also indicate Habaabi..There is a lot of leather below the belt further confusing the issue. To me its Habaabi... in part at least.

I will however put this one to my works team for added confirmation. If I was asked to name 2 places it could be from right now; I would say Habaabi (Hababi in the Yemen) and /or Salalah modified. More pinpoint I shall endeavor to be;

What we may have here is an Habaabi Khanjar(Jambia) but used and modified in Salalah. It is peculiar and could have a very mixed provenance with an Omani scabbard degraded to 2 rings and all the silver except the big fleur de lys floral decorations sprouting from discs at their base (top and bottom on the hilt which are Habaabi) being Omani on an Hababi (Rhino) hilt. The central hilt decorative ring Omani in the same style as the cuff etc. The scabbard silver toe Omani (Nizwa) as is all the silver with the exceptions above. Thus a mixed and modified old Khanjar that I believe is of the Salalah general type. The blade Omani.

Whilst this is something of a mouthful this is quite possibly a working Omani Salalah Jebali / Habaabi Khanjar. Confirmation follows. :)


Alternatively (and this is where the wheel comes slightly off the bike) it may be concocted (as so many daggers are) from a number of styles including the Royal Omani Khanjar which has similar floral decorative big buttons and a large central silver band on the hilt. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...78&page=2&pp=30
at #46.

Where might this have been obtained from?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 16th February 2013 09:55 PM

Salaams Ibrahiim,
I think that to tie an item down as being Habaabi is perhaps being a little too definite. You have stated elsewhere that these COULD have come from as far away as Asir, a distance of some 1000km, which indicates to me at least, that it COULD have originated from almost anywhere in the west of the Arabian Peninsula.
The fact (as you say) that Omanis refer to these particular Jambiyas as "habaabi", would suggest that it is maybe a convenient term applied to Yemeni/Saudia jambiya, which can not more accurately be placed to other centres of making.
I personally do not think that this Jambiya could possibly be of Omani manufacture, as the silver decoration (apart from the scabbard toe) does not show the typical scroll silverwork of most Omani Khanjars, and the hilt is definitely not in the typical Omani style.
I draw this conclusion from a website which I can not mention here, but you will know what I mean.
Regards Stu

A.alnakkas 17th February 2013 07:58 AM

I like this piece but I think it have lost its rings?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 17th February 2013 09:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Salaams Ibrahiim,
I think that to tie an item down as being Habaabi is perhaps being a little too definite. You have stated elsewhere that these COULD have come from as far away as Asir, a distance of some 1000km, which indicates to me at least, that it COULD have originated from almost anywhere in the west of the Arabian Peninsula.
The fact (as you say) that Omanis refer to these particular Jambiyas as "habaabi", would suggest that it is maybe a convenient term applied to Yemeni/Saudia jambiya, which can not more accurately be placed to other centres of making.
I personally do not think that this Jambiya could possibly be of Omani manufacture, as the silver decoration (apart from the scabbard toe) does not show the typical scroll silverwork of most Omani Khanjars, and the hilt is definitely not in the typical Omani style.
I draw this conclusion from a website which I can not mention here, but you will know what I mean.
Regards Stu



Salaams kahnjar1~ I can tell you this is a baffling piece. You are right about the toe... Its Omani. The tube shaped wrap on the Hilt is Omani... I reckon off a Royal Khanjar. The silver on the cuff matches the silver on the throat of the Scabbard... Its Omani and linked in style to the tubular ring. The floral buttons on the hilt are either from the Habaabi style or straight from a Royal Omani Khanjar. The blade looks Omani. The Scabbard though two rings are missing looks Omani. The Rhino perhaps off another dagger.

I think the initial assessment is wrong .. but it was close !

What you have here is an Omani Khanjar probably used by the Jebali of Salalah (Dhofar) stripped back to the leather at the scabbard minus a couple of rings perhaps with a toe added from another Khanjar and a Rhino hilt from?? Yemen...Unless it is the Rhino hilt of an original Royal Omani Khanjar with all or much of the silver adornment removed; which would explain the central silver tubular ring and the floral decoration. Could we in fact be looking at the remains of an entire 7 ringer Omani Royal Khanjar?

This is typical of the Salalah mish-mash style but does not distract from the aesthetics of this piece This is typically what the Salalah dagger can go through as it is personalised or customised down the ages.

Habaabi is definitely a term to describe Yemeni weapons of the nature already described and similar to the Omani Muscat Style likely because of the trade linkage to that region. Currently it is hugely difficult to visit the area otherwise I would be there in a flash as the region has some fascinating history. I will see if the Muscat museums can throw some more light into that dark corner.

If you are able to say that the item was from a Salalah source it will give an added pointer to where we should be looking?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 18th February 2013 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I like this piece but I think it have lost its rings?

Yes very likely.....

kahnjar1 18th February 2013 01:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams kahnjar1~ I can tell you this is a baffling piece. You are right about the toe... Its Omani. The tube shaped wrap on the Hilt is Omani... I reckon off a Royal Khanjar. The silver on the cuff matches the silver on the throat of the Scabbard... Its Omani and linked in style to the tubular ring. The floral buttons on the hilt are either from the Habaabi style or straight from a Royal Omani Khanjar. The blade looks Omani. The Scabbard though two rings are missing looks Omani. The Rhino perhaps off another dagger.

I think the initial assessment is wrong .. but it was close !

What you have here is an Omani Khanjar probably used by the Jebali of Salalah (Dhofar) stripped back to the leather at the scabbard minus a couple of rings perhaps with a toe added from another Khanjar and a Rhino hilt from?? Yemen...Unless it is the Rhino hilt of an original Royal Omani Khanjar with all or much of the silver adornment removed; which would explain the central silver tubular ring and the floral decoration. Could we in fact be looking at the remains of an entire 7 ringer Omani Royal Khanjar?

This is typical of the Salalah mish-mash style but does not distract from the aesthetics of this piece This is typically what the Salalah dagger can go through as it is personalised or customised down the ages.

Habaabi is definitely a term to describe Yemeni weapons of the nature already described and similar to the Omani Muscat Style likely because of the trade linkage to that region. Currently it is hugely difficult to visit the area otherwise I would be there in a flash as the region has some fascinating history. I will see if the Muscat museums can throw some more light into that dark corner.

If you are able to say that the item was from a Salalah source it will give an added pointer to where we should be looking?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,
Not sure that I entirely agree with what you say here.
Firstly this Jambiya was acquired in the U.K so that is not going to help much.
Yes the scabbard toe is likely Nizwa Omani.
Your other comments to me do not ring true. To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected, is that apart from the Saidi (Royal) Khanjar, most, if not all Omani Khanjars do NOT tend to have the central wrap on the hilt, however MANY Yemeni styles do. There is no way IMHO that this is (as you put it) a "stripped down" Saidi Khanjar, as the hilt shape is all wrong at the top.
Your latest suggestion of Salalah as a possible origin, seems to me to make more sense, as it is very near the Yemeni Hadraumauti border, and I have it on good authority that there are many "cross/culture " pieces to be seen there.
As far as there being only two rings, I would agree that it is likely that the other two and the wire binding are missing, and probably have been for a very long time. The rings by the way are brass or bronze, not silver, though they are of typical cross section shape (not round section).
Regards Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 18th February 2013 03:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Salaams Ibrahiim,
Not sure that I entirely agree with what you say here.
Firstly this Jambiya was acquired in the U.K so that is not going to help much.
Yes the scabbard toe is likely Nizwa Omani.
Your other comments to me do not ring true. To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected, is that apart from the Saidi (Royal) Khanjar, most, if not all Omani Khanjars do NOT tend to have the central wrap on the hilt, however MANY Yemeni styles do. There is no way IMHO that this is (as you put it) a "stripped down" Saidi Khanjar, as the hilt shape is all wrong at the top.
Your latest suggestion of Salalah as a possible origin, seems to me to make more sense, as it is very near the Yemeni Hadraumauti border, and I have it on good authority that there are many "cross/culture " pieces to be seen there.
As far as there being only two rings, I would agree that it is likely that the other two and the wire binding are missing, and probably have been for a very long time. The rings by the way are brass or bronze, not silver, though they are of typical cross section shape (not round section).
Regards Stu



Salaams kahnjar1 I agree with much of your post however, I think the provenance is mixed(as it is with many Omani Khanjars particularly Salalah items) Lets look at this stripped down;
1. Hilt Rhino ~ Could be the Habaabi hilt. Agreed that the pommel configuration is too "Tee Shaped" to be Saidia Royal Style. It could be from another Omani Khanjar see the attached Tee Shaped Dagger. It could also be off a Muscat Khanjar.
2. The big hilt ring... This is off a Royal Omani Hilt for sure...
3. The Cuff silver same geometry as 2 above ... same source.
4. The Throat silver.. 2 and 3 above same source off the Royal weapon.
5. Toe This is off some other Omani Khanjar not the royal style. I have seen a lot of flat ended toe units on Omani Khanjars. Probably Nizwa.
6. Rings ... Not silver but still in the style of Omani and may be from the original scabbard. Two rings missing.
7. The Floral shapes on the hilt... Probably off the same Royal hilt as the other silver work... Same decorative items are on the Habaabi but the chances are this is ex Royal Khanjar silver.

So over-all I reckon mainly taken from a Royal Khanjar but used in Salalah and worn by the Jebali who straddle the border whose relatives are on both sides. It may also be from one of the other Bedu groups around there. Salalah for certain.

Heres a puzzle photo below from which some of the answers may be gleaned ~ I will post on The Omani Khanjar later ... This one is from the TRM(Tareq Rajeb Museum) in Kuwait. Not a common Omani style I have to say.... similar to one I have seen in Mussandam and other similarities with the classic form of Muscat Khanjar...and Royal variety.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas 18th February 2013 04:13 PM

the hilt ring and the toe are not necessarily taken out of other pieces. These are made sometimes based on personal requests of the owners and in most times they mix different styles together.

The hilt is cut in a style usually found on Saudi khanjars so I doubt it was ever was on a Bu-Saidi type khanjar.

A.alnakkas 18th February 2013 04:16 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Included are 2 photos of Saudi Khanjars with the hilt ring. Obviously those were taken from an Omani 'royal' hilt :P seriously, all of the Bu-saidi khanjars I handled had a slimmer hilt figure, it will look odd to try and wrap their rings on a thicker cut hilt.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 18th February 2013 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
the hilt ring and the toe are not necessarily taken out of other pieces. These are made sometimes based on personal requests of the owners and in most times they mix different styles together.

The hilt is cut in a style usually found on Saudi khanjars so I doubt it was ever was on a Bu-Saidi type khanjar.



Salaams A.alnakkas, I show another Omani Khanjar from which the hilt could have derived..It may have come from an Omani dagger... or as you say possibly a Saudia weapon but I doubt it very much. See the other Omani daggers at The Omani Khanjar... there are at least 2. People don't usually request a specific style of toe or rings.. they usually just wander into the silvermaker on market day and see whats cooking. Its very random. Modifications to this weapon could have occured over a long period...several years.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 18th February 2013 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Included are 2 photos of Saudi Khanjars with the hilt ring. Obviously those were taken from an Omani 'royal' hilt :P seriously, all of the Bu-saidi khanjars I handled had a slimmer hilt figure, it will look odd to try and wrap their rings on a thicker cut hilt.



Salaams The weapons you show are not Omani. They are from the Asir down in the Southern part of Saudia bordering Yemen(and worn on both sides of that border) which are called in Oman "Habaabi". It is likely that this type originated in Muscat and because of trade with the region and on route to Zanzibar... i.e. the style migrated.

The wife of one of the Omani Sultans(Sheherezad) is credited with designing the Royal Khanjar in about 1850, however, there is another Muscat dagger with Tee Shaped hilt and 7 rings that could have been the design root of this form.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas 18th February 2013 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams The weapons you show are not Omani. They are from the Asir down in the Southern part of Saudia bordering Yemen(and worn on both sides of that border) which are called in Oman "Habaabi". It is likely that this type originated in Muscat and because of trade with the region and on route to Zanzibar... i.e. the style migrated.

The wife of one of the Omani Sultans(Sheherezad) is credited with designing the Royal Khanjar in about 1850, however, there is another Muscat dagger with Tee Shaped hilt and 7 rings that could have been the design root of this form.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E

kahnjar1 18th February 2013 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams kahnjar1 I agree with much of your post however, I think the provenance is mixed(as it is with many Omani Khanjars particularly Salalah items) Lets look at this stripped down;
1. Hilt Rhino ~ Could be the Habaabi hilt. Agreed that the pommel configuration is too "Tee Shaped" to be Saidia Royal Style. It could be from another Omani Khanjar see the attached Tee Shaped Dagger. It could also be off a Muscat Khanjar.
2. The big hilt ring... This is off a Royal Omani Hilt for sure...
3. The Cuff silver same geometry as 2 above ... same source.
4. The Throat silver.. 2 and 3 above same source off the Royal weapon.
5. Toe This is off some other Omani Khanjar not the royal style. I have seen a lot of flat ended toe units on Omani Khanjars. Probably Nizwa.
6. Rings ... Not silver but still in the style of Omani and may be from the original scabbard. Two rings missing.
7. The Floral shapes on the hilt... Probably off the same Royal hilt as the other silver work... Same decorative items are on the Habaabi but the chances are this is ex Royal Khanjar silver.

So over-all I reckon mainly taken from a Royal Khanjar but used in Salalah and worn by the Jebali who straddle the border whose relatives are on both sides. It may also be from one of the other Bedu groups around there. Salalah for certain.

Heres a puzzle photo below from which some of the answers may be gleaned ~ I will post on The Omani Khanjar later ... This one is from the TRM(Tareq Rajeb Museum) in Kuwait. Not a common Omani style I have to say.... similar to one I have seen in Mussandam and other similarities with the classic form of Muscat Khanjar...and Royal variety.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Quite frankly I believe that you are completely off track with your comments that everything is from a Saidi Khanjar. Lofty in his post above (#12) states (and correctly) that the neck wrap is too big to be from a Saidi piece.
I will also point out again, that most Omani silver decoration is scroll type. This is NOT, apart from the scabbard toe.
You have , elsewhere, "positively" identified the subject piece as "habaabi or Asir", a distance apart of around 1000 km, and, also "Salalah", which is a further approx 1900 km due east from where you first identified this as being from. To put this in context, it must be remembered that until the end of WW1/WW2, there was very little known of Arabia, and travel overland would mostly have been by camel. Roads as we now know them just did not exist, so the liklihood of someone "sourcing" bits from these areas, so he could make a Khanjar is most unlikely in my opinion..
Now it appears that it is "positively" a stripped down Saidi Khanjar, or at least a Khanjar/Jambiya using most parts of one, and is likely of Omani origin.
Not all daggers and swords found in the Arabian Peninsula come from Oman, and in fact there are many, many, more styles which come from Yemen and Saudia.
I still believe that this Jambiya is either Yemeni/Saudia, or possibly (not positively), from the Salalah border areas with Yemen.
So we do not appear to be any further ahead.........

kahnjar1 19th February 2013 12:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams The weapons you show are not Omani. They are from the Asir down in the Southern part of Saudia bordering Yemen(and worn on both sides of that border) which are called in Oman "Habaabi". It is likely that this type originated in Muscat and because of trade with the region and on route to Zanzibar... i.e. the style migrated.

The wife of one of the Omani Sultans(Sheherezad) is credited with designing the Royal Khanjar in about 1850, however, there is another Muscat dagger with Tee Shaped hilt and 7 rings that could have been the design root of this form.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

-----surely not habaabi again!! The place must be awash with so many different Jambiya styles....... :confused:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 19th February 2013 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Quite frankly I believe that you are completely off track with your comments that everything is from a Saidi Khanjar. Lofty in his post above (#12) states (and correctly) that the neck wrap is too big to be from a Saidi piece.
I will also point out again, that most Omani silver decoration is scroll type. This is NOT, apart from the scabbard toe.
You have , elsewhere, "positively" identified the subject piece as "habaabi or Asir", a distance apart of around 1000 km, and, also "Salalah", which is a further approx 1900 km due east from where you first identified this as being from. To put this in context, it must be remembered that until the end of WW1/WW2, there was very little known of Arabia, and travel overland would mostly have been by camel. Roads as we now know them just did not exist, so the liklihood of someone "sourcing" bits from these areas, so he could make a Khanjar is most unlikely in my opinion..
Now it appears that it is "positively" a stripped down Saidi Khanjar, or at least a Khanjar/Jambiya using most parts of one, and is likely of Omani origin.
Not all daggers and swords found in the Arabian Peninsula come from Oman, and in fact there are many, many, more styles which come from Yemen and Saudia.
I still believe that this Jambiya is either Yemeni/Saudia, or possibly (not positively), from the Salalah border areas with Yemen.
So we do not appear to be any further ahead.........



Salaams kahnjar1 No not quite...

In fact I am absolutely straight on track. These are the facts. Should I get it wrong the first time I have no problem in putting it right. I've done that.

Perhaps, however, we need to get something aired here...This Forum is designed with rules for good reason; as they say rules are 50% for you and 50% against. I believe that you are very much in the red zone with your post. Not only do you insult me but Forum and what onlookers must think about your performance I can only guess.

I have given good research time to your questions which too often have been degenerated by you into quite rediculous, confrontational, nonsense but I still provide the details as best I can..with my limited knowledge, fieldwork and hands on experience of many decades in this subject.

I believe you set this one up from the beginning of the thread..and another who joined you have compounded your disgraceful situation.

Let this serve as your last mischief directed toward me...or I shall simply ignore your posts. That way you will learn nothing and gain nothing from these important pages.

I therefor refer your completely juvenile post and the one previous at #15 to Moderator support for ruling and trust that you will refrain from such scurilous, insulting, stupid behaviour in future.


Facts to Forum Library ~As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place. :shrug:


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 19th February 2013 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams kahnjar1 No not quite...

In fact I am absolutely straight on track. These are the facts. Should I get it wrong the first time I have no problem in putting it right. I've done that.

Perhaps, however, we need to get something aired here...This Forum is designed with rules for good reason; as they say rules are 50% for you and 50% against. I believe that you are very much in the red zone with your post. Not only do you insult me but Forum and what onlookers must think about your performance I can only guess.

I have given good research time to your questions which too often have been degenerated by you into quite rediculous, confrontational, nonsense but I still provide the details as best I can..with my limited knowledge, fieldwork and hands on experience of many decades in this subject.

I believe you set this one up from the beginning of the thread..and another who joined you have compounded your disgraceful situation.

Let this serve as your last mischief directed toward me...or I shall simply ignore your posts. That way you will learn nothing and gain nothing from these important pages.

I therefor refer your completely juvenile post and the one previous at #15 to Moderator support for ruling and trust that you will refrain from such scurilous, insulting, stupid behaviour in future.


Facts to Forum Library ~As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place. :shrug:


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,
Let me correct you if I may. #15 post is NOT MINE. With respect, I suggest that you level your comments at the right person.
Regards Stuart

Jim McDougall 20th February 2013 05:31 PM

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 20th February 2013 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?



Salaams Jim McDougall..I thank you for your post.

It is always very interesting to be confronted with the occasional mission impossible to identify an object which seems to defy logic and throws the search this way and that...I for one have been wrong footed a couple of times in cracking this particular nut. I start again by reiterating the last paragraph in my previous post ~

As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas 20th February 2013 06:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?


First, there is no need to assume that this thread was made for a purpose other then discussing the origin of this particular item.

I have posted the 3 second video knowing and meaning what it represent. There is no need to blame anything on Stu. What I meant by the video is just that, a facepalm. I have replied showing 2 daggers from Saudi of which the reply to came "they are not Omani" with all due respect that facepalm video is the least one can do to such a silly reply. If you are offended by it then so be it.

Both me and Stu post items for discussion and welcome Ibrahim's opinions but he should have the decency NOT to consider his opinions as facts. Some of the stuff he says defy logic but its pushed every topic as sacred fact and that is extremely frustrating.

Jim McDougall 20th February 2013 06:29 PM

Points well taken Lofty, and duly noted. As I had suggested, lets keep the discussion focused on material at hand and observations accordingly. I also think we can offer rebuttal to anyones observations with constructive support without derisive context. I think it is pretty much generally held that any observation or theory is subject to opposing views and new or often conflicting evidence regardless of whether it is perceived as fact or compellingly plausible. In my opinion the courtesy is incumbent on the manner in which that is achieved.
I very much appreciate the items posted and learned input of everyone here, and as noted, think we can keep discussions more helpful without the derisively textured comments.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 20th February 2013 06:35 PM

Habaabi Weapons. The Asir.
 
Salaams All Note to Forum See The Omani Khanjar #17. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...78&page=1&pp=30

Below are placed more references showing the style of weapon from The Asir region.. Oddly these daggers are called Habaabi in Oman and although this may be because of sea trade (Muscat Yemen Zanzibar) it is still a point shrouded in mystery. Hababi is a city SOUTH WEST of Ta'izz well to the South of the Asir and in Yemen..About midway between Ta'izz and the Red Sea.

The indicators are that this dagger is worn on both sides of the border in Yemen and Saudia. That region was recently (about 1920) absorbed into Saudia from what was then North Yemen.

It is noted that these daggers are very similar in design to Omani Khanjars of several styles including The Muscat Khanjar and The Royal Omani Khanjar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5512947198

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4336633417

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340287

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340299

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4318547823

Jim McDougall 20th February 2013 07:56 PM

Thank you for the additional references and observations Ibrahiim. It seems to me that efforts to 'pidgeon hole' classification terminology with most ethnographic weapon forms becomes terribly vague altogether too often.
Clearly certain forms develop within certain cultures and over time develop varying characteristics with different influences diffused into them. Through trade and cultural and geopolitical flux it becomes more and more difficult to classify examples to particular regions with absolute certainty.

One of the greatest banes of ethnographic study has always, as far as I have known, been the 'name game', and often it becomes necessary to add, in my opinion, qualifying detail to descriptions. I think one of the fascinating things about Arabian weapons, like many other cultures, is the varying locally used terms for certain weapons. Until a few years ago, I had always assumed the familiar daggers which I know now are khanjhars, were all called janbiyyas. Clearly, in local parlances there are many terms used to define these further, and until reading this thread I had no idea of the term 'habaabi' for a particular form of khanjhar.

I would think that with modified examples, traded items, custom or variant pieces and so forth with a traditionally contemporary item such as these, it would be difficult to classify many examples finitely within a certain regional classification. This would especially be the case when the example is obviously an amalgam of features from varying established types.
Though it is sometimes troublesome for many to use compound descriptions to accurately classify such weapons, it seems to me the only responsible and viable approach.

In all, good learning exercise here everybody, its good to keep the learning curve moving!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 21st February 2013 03:22 PM

Which, What, When, Why, Where, How; Forum Motto?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you for the additional references and observations Ibrahiim. It seems to me that efforts to 'pidgeon hole' classification terminology with most ethnographic weapon forms becomes terribly vague altogether too often.
Clearly certain forms develop within certain cultures and over time develop varying characteristics with different influences diffused into them. Through trade and cultural and geopolitical flux it becomes more and more difficult to classify examples to particular regions with absolute certainty.

One of the greatest banes of ethnographic study has always, as far as I have known, been the 'name game', and often it becomes necessary to add, in my opinion, qualifying detail to descriptions. I think one of the fascinating things about Arabian weapons, like many other cultures, is the varying locally used terms for certain weapons. Until a few years ago, I had always assumed the familiar daggers which I know now are Khanjhars, were all called janbiyyas. Clearly, in local parlances there are many terms used to define these further, and until reading this thread I had no idea of the term 'habaabi' for a particular form of khanjhar.

I would think that with modified examples, traded items, custom or variant pieces and so forth with a traditionally contemporary item such as these, it would be difficult to classify many examples finitely within a certain regional classification. This would especially be the case when the example is obviously an amalgam of features from varying established types.
Though it is sometimes troublesome for many to use compound descriptions to accurately classify such weapons, it seems to me the only responsible and viable approach.

In all, good learning exercise here everybody, its good to keep the learning curve moving!



Salaams Jim, Thanks for the important detail. I add this late point ~In placing the subject of Asir and Omani daggers in the think tank one very important aspect has emerged and is covered on The Omani Khanjar http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...3619#post153619 at #79 which throws the question wide open as to what the linkage is between the two systems.

This phenomena ..."Weapons Jambia/Khanjars in the Asir" and both sides of the Yemeni / Saudia border are an almost exact mirror of The Omani Khanjars called
1.Muscat Khanjars (With a tee shaped hilt and 7 rings) and
2.Royal Khanjars(with the fancy Sheherazad 1850 hilt and 7 rings) SEE NOTE*...

This a real puzzle not only because of the 1920s border re-alignment making these now Saudia variants (before that Yemeni) but also because of the almost screamingly obvious trade link between there and Muscat and Zanzibar in the period of that intermixiture.. in the 19th C.

So far as I can determine;
1. No other Saudia daggers look like these Omani weapons.
2. No other Yemeni daggers look like these Omani weapons.

For reasons unknown to anyone they have this peculiar name Habaabi.

The Asir variants are called Habaabi by Omanis, thus, logically seem to attribute that name to Hababi in Yemen. The only other supect for that name may be a tribal group in what is now the Asir... I've looked, searched, questioned and puzzled... but find it I cannot.

It is like several undetermined facts placed on Forum; so that perhaps another researcher may dig up the truth later.

I asked our local souk Yemeni shop owner what he called these daggers and he blinked...looked at me as if I was soft in the head... and said in a bemused way "Habaabi" . Regretably he knew nought about its provenance. I have therefor stuck the pin in the donkeys tail quite expecting to be kicked but it leaves the door open for someone else to "bring it on".

What is very important for me is to unearth the exact transition~ either Oman to Yemen or Yemen to Oman of this specific styling. No one has done it yet... we have the possibility of a groundbreaking discovery because mine is only hypothesis so who will take up the cudgel?...Who will run with the ball and help solve this one? Much of the groundwork is on The Omani Khanjar but it's open to constructive criticism. Any lurkers out there ? HELLO !!! :D

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

NOTE* I seek clarification on the fact that the Muscat Dagger has a scabbard that is identical to the Royal Khanjar but has a TEE Shaped hilt. Did the Royal Khanjar influence The Muscat Khanjar or was it already like that pre Sheherazad...Pre 1850... On top of that comes the Asir configuration which needs to be rooted out... another Museum task. :)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 8th May 2014 06:10 PM

ABHA... HABAABI...MEANING OF ABHA REGION.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Salaams all ! In answer to my own querries above~

(ABHA... HABAABI...MEANING "OF THE" ABHA REGION.)

The earlier of the two daggers The Muscat / The Royal Omani sa'idiyyah khanjar appeared in that order. The second was designed by a previous Sultans wife the infamous Sheherezad. A Persian Princess. It is known that the only part of the design that was changed was the Hilt... The rest of it is as per the Muscat Khanjar WHICH HAD 7 RINGS...thus the two are linked both in place and in design. She also designed the Royal Turban and Camerbund.

The guestimate on date is around 1840/1850.

Regarding the Habaabi weapon which is almost identical to THE MUSCAT KHANJAR it is considered that the name Abha is the city name central to that region of which Jazan is the Red Sea Port. Abha... or items eminating from it...are called 'Abhaabi or Habaabi. (probably the correct pronunciation is aspirated like habhaabi but I will avoid that :) )
The region as you may discover at the maps below has a Yemeni feel to it since it was Yemen before about 1920..1923...The weapon clearly emigrated into the area since it was on the main Muscat-Zanzibar trade route. Slight variations were made but essentially it is the same weapon...You could say slightly hybridised even... :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 29th May 2014 06:40 PM

See #2 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18570 for a modification to the influence of Omani Khanjars in the Asir region.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:


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