Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys.

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[T. Koch]

Thanks Stu! Would be cool if anybody ever visiting the museum could have a look at their info on the piece. Maybe the data will have a riveting tale to tell, along the lines that Gavin suggests! I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for the museum to go online with their collection..

Then maybe you guys could also get a useful pointer as to time-span for this new sword type of yours.


All the best, - Thor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams ~ Note to Forum. The technique of covering the hilt in leather is multi faceted ..
1. It provides a much sturdier hilt.
2. The anti slip, good grip qualities of leather make it an excellent material.
3. Leather was in plentiful supply from goat, cow, camel and occasionally other tallismanic materials like wolf, hyena and fox.
4. Lastly the habit of covering iron with leather was used to negate the devil/evil link of Iron coming into direct contact with the skin. Iron was seen as attracting evil.

#1 shows how the scabbard was completed in worked leather and it would be easy to imagine that a hilt would be more susceptible to destructive wear thus all that's left is the metalic hilt... in most cases Iron though some with partial other metals in places perhaps the result of a running repair.

The museum plaque probably holds little factual evidence (as usual) Pro active information and detail on Museum exhibits is laughable at best and I would imagine it says something like "Arabian Red Sea swords," however, that is not to write off an aproach on potential information...Anything goes on that quest !

More to the point is the construction of the hilt showing that the style is in line with the technique of the Omani Battle Sword Hilt with Pommel not attached to tang though the two parts of the hilt appear welded unlike the Omani Hilt which is riveted over a wooden insert core. The pommel unlike the Omani Hilt is very crude as are the what look like remnants of quillons which are in fact incorporated into the cuff. Occasionally the cuff has the weird long window like addition which could be to enable a stuck sword to be freed or used in the role of quillons to twist an opponents blade out of his grip. The whole hilt appears as a monumental religious based iconic shape..with a number of potential provenances including African. It could even be a mass produced militia sword.

The full implications need to be examined as it may be a separate as yet unidentified type. Its provenance needs a full airing and any links to other regional variants should be carefully considered.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note ...To complete my overall view on this style and in reviewing similar blades to the basic project blades at #1 and similar are there relationships also connected to the blade style seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...arabian+swords in the souk.

Naturally there are various solutions, though, it may be some time before a complete analysis presents itself. Until then I would advise the usual open mind and thorough research with the hope that conclusive evidence is presented.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So we don't have to continually link to other threads, here are the pics of the Wallace Collection sword, with descriptive text.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All.

Comparing the project sword style at #1 what we appear to be looking at is the same design as shown on

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 See # 11 picture number 12..Scroll down 12 pictures(final picture) and see 3rd from right sword.

This Museum exhibit is in Istanbul so is likely to be "Mamluke" linked which places rather a more important hand on this style. Definitely more research needed on this !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All.

Comparing the project sword style at #1 what we appear to be looking at is the same design as shown on

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 See # 11 picture number 12..Scroll down 12 pictures(final picture) and see 3rd from right sword.

This Museum exhibit is in Istanbul so is likely to be "Mamluke" linked which places rather a more important hand on this style. Definitely more research needed on this !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

........this one.....and rotated to show the right way up........the subject sword is now third from left.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

........this one.....and rotated to show the right way up........the subject sword is now third from left.

The point being that this sword now unfolds as present in at least two museums Istanbul Military and a Yemeni Military exhibit though the more basic forms at Project #1 etc appear as later forms of the same/ similar design. Late 18th -Mid 19th C ? The clear links however with a much earlier style indicate Ottoman, Mamluke and Abassiid roots, potential links to Omani forms both battle and dancing swords and a rethink on the Old Omani Battle Sword in the light of the weapon at Istanbul Military Museum ..and the Forum discussion so far... It is certainly a twisting and turning development.

If you look at the form of the sword style of the previous photo number 10 of #11 at the Istanbul Museum http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 you will see how close the blade is to the Mamluke style and where the sword begins to shape up in the relationship to what we are now looking at ... and with an eye on the Wallace type assessed as appearing in the late 1700s as a highly ornate badge of office for an important Persian dignatory and said to be of Cairo manufacture utilizing an Arabized German blade. In unearthing the truth behind the project sword we may also be poised to take on the Wallace supposition of provenance on their exhibit which is very interesting indeed.

In the thread "Kattara for comments" you will also discover that I made a comparison with the Mamluke and the old Omani Battle Sword, however, it may be that the sword I should have also compared was the project sword... as well... In this case a redraw may be required in which an even bigger and more obvious comparison is required between the two clearly similar hilt formations... The Long Metalic Red Sea Sword and The Omani Battle Sword. Both originating in pre Mamluke (Abassiid) and permeating the Ottoman Style and cunningly until now flying under the radar but now on the workbench as a very interesting discussion ... as a Yemeni Variant possibly from the Habaabi region that before about 1920 was Yemen and is now in Saudi Arabia.

As a sideline but equally related is the obvious similarity in long broadsword type between the Omani dancing sword and this Project weapon (weapon as opposed to dancing sword since its a stiff blade) Could it be that the Omani dancing sword evolved from this ... It has a long hilt that could concievably have morphed into what we recognise as the Long Omani Hilt... on both the straight Omani Sayf and curved Kattara.

It poses these broader questions which will now unravel. Bring it on !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.