Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 7th December 2012, 04:18 PM   #1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default The Omani Battle Sword. Sayf Yamaani.

Salaams All. I have just received a superb Omani Battle Sword(AKA SAYF YAMAANI) into my personal collection. This is an interesting mark. It has 10 geometric grooves around the pommel and the hilt is actually 8 sided though it looks round it's not. The top hole of the hilt has a small pin for holding a wrist cord. Originally the hilt would have been wound with leather and the wooden core scabbard also leather bound. Two small holes in the crossguard would have been decorated with small silver buttons. All of this restoration work is now being drawn up.

For the update on detail on this and other Omani Swords see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 in particular regarding the Sayf Yamaani Swords vital statistics and comparisons please check posts 160 312 and 314.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes; So vital is the post at 312 of my reference that I include it here verbatum (but with an additional note on the 8 sided hilt at the end*) for ease of perusal.


Re-Comparison of Abbasid sword and Sayf Yamaani The old Omani Battle Sword ... Ammended as below:


The Topkapi museum holds the key. The Abbasid 9th Century Sword in their collection viz; http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/TopkapiArms2.html
is compared to the Omani Short Battle Sword (Sayf Yamaani)as follows;

1. Both are early two edged Islamic Arab Battle Swords.
2. Both blades have an integral tang with an added pommel or cap.
3. Both have three holes in the handle which is similarly constructed with rivets. The top hole apparently for a wrist strap.
4. Both weapons have quillons.
5. Both blades are wing shaped in cross section, thinning toward the tip.
6. Both blades culminate in a round/spatulate tip.
7. Both blades (though not all examples of the Omani sword) have the golden dot or dots on the blade. The dot in Islamic geometry is an important centre of the universe construct.
8. Both hilts are topped with a cap in the case of the Abbasid and an Islamic arch pommel culminating in a short spike on the Omani.
9. Neither blade has risers nor fullers though in much later blades fullers may appear.
10. Both blades are stiff and generally only slightly flexible.
11. Both handles are octagonal in cross section *
12. If the rounded tip concept is accepted; the style of fighting must have been "chop and slash" in both cases.

Since the Abassid were in Oman with garrisons suppressing the Ibadi religious movement, thus, in direct conflict with the organisation led by the Omani Ibn Julanda (First Immam) in 751 a.d. It is therefor additionally evidenced by the 12 factors above that their battle sword was designed from the Abassid weapon and slightly changed to reflect a heraldic hilt or modified to the Omani design. It was called Sayf Yamaani though precise location of manufacture is still being sought; Yemen(Hadramaut), Nizwa or elsewhere in Oman being likely contenders.
* The octagonal shape is a take off from the 8 sided Minaret structure of Abbasid Mosques and commonly seen in Islamic geometric expression in their art form.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 7th December 2012 at 05:09 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2012, 05:51 PM   #2
Al Shamal
Member
 
Al Shamal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 32
Default

Mabrook!
Al Shamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 05:06 PM   #3
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

I really love them. They are so archaic, functional, with nary an embellishment. Truly fighting sword with battlefield being its home. I can hardly imagine one of those hanging on the wall, although I did see examples with silver-clad handles. But even those were austerely brutal.

I have one only, and have shown it here already. Now I need to find another mis-identified one for $100 with no watchers:-)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 07:36 PM   #4
TribalBlades
Member
 
TribalBlades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33
Default

The blade looks similar to the Touareg Takouba (as on the vikingsword website logo above).

maybe it is the way of the desert dwelling nomads.
TribalBlades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2012, 10:26 AM   #5
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,118
Default

A fine sword. Congratulations !
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2012, 06:50 PM   #6
Michael Blalock
Member
 
Michael Blalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: dc
Posts: 266
Default

Very nice sword Ibrahiim
Michael Blalock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2012, 03:11 PM   #7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams all ~ This is indeed an awesome battle sword. I have, however only ever seen one proper looking stamp or rather inscription which I believe has a date and the makers name but I cannot decipher..Possibly Nizwa.

I have just completed a restoration of a couple of hilts (leather work) and the placement of scabbards with swords that had none... lost in time....The leather work is as per the Battle Sword Example at the TRM in Quwait and various examples in Muscat museums. The leather is occasionally dyed either black or brown. The pattern typically geometric. This is a multi phase restoration with the remaining phase to include silver mounts and possible silver floral work to the 2 holes in the crossguard... small silver studs. There may be added quite extensive silver to the throat and toe. Over the last few centuries and certainly since the 1744 takeover of the dynasty now ruling this sword has become iconic and even has a silver hilt like the Royal Khanjar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
     

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 18th December 2012 at 08:28 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2012, 08:39 AM   #8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams All ~ Just to bring the thread up to speed with the pairing up of the Terrs Shield (a Buckler form) and a Royal Hilt. The sword shown is the same sword restored above at left on final picture etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
  
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2013, 05:31 PM   #9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams Note to Library; A largely pictorial note is logged in here to patch in the varieties of like type swords identified as far back as Abassiid through the Mamluke and Ottoman transfer of technology and via the Abasiids directly to the Omani style during their battles in the 8th C.ad...

The long metalic hilt is being pondered as of January 2013 as linked with the development of the Omani long hilt Sayfs and Kattaras possibly late 18th C. either accidentally or deliberately linked to the formation of the Al busaiid dynasty and / or with the slave trade link.

The Omani Battle Sword is being viewed as linked to the Abassiid in either its dis similar hilt form (photo 3 below) or the long hilt in the Istanbul Military Museum likely to also be Mamluke and Abbasiid.

Where the Wallace Sword fits is also open to conjecture.... it is dated about 1790.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
       

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 6th February 2013 at 05:48 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2013, 05:39 AM   #10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams All Note to Library So as to be less confusing I will tend to only mention Omani Battle Swords on this thread... and use the other thread Kattara for comment http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...5&page=11&pp=30 for the inclusion of Sayf dancing sword and Kattara detail for now even though the paths of these swords pass in front of each other and are often mingled together. Where I refer to Mamluke Swords I mean Mamluke Swords in the Ottoman sense of sword as technology transfered down the ages thus likely to be Abasiid. i.e. Ottoman, Mamluke, Abasiid thus likely to have been used against the Oman in 751 a.d. by the Iraqi garrisons in Oman at the time suppressing Ibathi Islam.... and garrisoned in Buraimi.

We know in addition that the swords at picture 3 are Abassiid since similar variants appear in the Topkapi museum named as such. For a view of the Topkapi swords see picture 4 below.

A full comparison done at "Kattara for comments" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...5&page=11&pp=30 #314 notes the following in the case of similarities with the weapons at 4.

1. Both are early two edged Islamic Arab Battle Swords.
2. Both blades have an integral tang with an added pommel or cap.
3. Both have three holes in the handle which is similarly constructed with rivets. The top hole apparently for a wrist strap.
4. Both weapons have quillons.
5. Both blades are wing shaped in cross section, thinning toward the tip.
6. Both blades culminate in a round/spatulate tip.
7. Both blades (though not all examples of the Omani sword) have the golden dot or dots on the blade. The dot in Islamic geometry is an important centre of the universe construct.
8. Both hilts are topped with a cap in the case of the Abbasid and an Islamic arch pommel culminating in a short spike on the Omani.
9. Neither blade has risers nor fullers though in much later blades fullers may appear.
10. Both blades are stiff and generally only slightly flexible.
11. Both handles are octagonal in cross section *
12. If the rounded tip concept is accepted; the style of fighting must have been "chop and slash" in both cases.

Now in comparing the Omani Battle Sword at picture 1 below with Picture 2s Sword all of the above plus in terms of the hilt an almost identical style in two distinct sections with a pointed pommel (not attached to the tang) though variation in the cuff which is twice as big in the Mamluke version and the quillons blend in the Mamluke to form flanking strengtheners to the cuff.

I hope this brings this thread into line with the other threads with similar input... and slightly re-aligns the general theory about the Omani Battle Sword.

This falls into line timewise and insofar as the previous hypothesis on Omani Battle Swords changes nothing in the original but leaves open several routes on the following which will be spun off to other threads but placed here for reference;

1. How did the sword at picture 2 below influence Red Sea Swords introduced there by the Ottoman Empire ? If so when and where?
2. Did the long metalic hilt at picture 2 influence the Omani design of long hilt on the Sayf and Kattara. If so when?
3. Did this sword or the sword at picture 3/4 have any other Red Sea influence? If so when and where?
4. How does the Wallace sword fit in with this sword family if at all ?


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note (It can be seen that the swords at both 3(Mamluke) and 4(Abasiid) are the same type.)
Attached Images
    

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 8th February 2013 at 06:50 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2013, 11:33 AM   #11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

More Old Omani Battle Swords.
Attached Images
   
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2013, 06:24 AM   #12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams All~ Note to Library; The top hole is well illustrated in Omani Battle Swords. The tang falls short of that point having two securing holes. The obvious reason that it was used as a wrist strap anchor point is generally accepted. On the very odd occasion it is sometimes seen filled with a rivvet.

Interestingly the crossguard has two holes mirroring the design of the Mamluke sword suggesting that this entire design is a cross of two museum forms shown in post #10.

The Omani Battle Sword is similar in design to the Ottoman/ Mamluke Sword at Picture 1 post# 10 on 13 counts and to the Mamluke/ Ottoman Sword at Picture 2 post# 10 on 16 counts.

The two Ottoman/Mamluke forms by association and design comparison must therefor both be Abbassiid.

The technology transfer to the Omani Battle Sword is thus still underpinned at 751 AD.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 10th February 2013 at 07:12 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2013, 07:20 AM   #13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams all ~ Earliest known picture of an Omani Battle Sword seen on a sketch of Sultan Bin Bargash though actually quite late in the 19th C. proving that it was Iconised and carried by Royalty and well on into the early 20th C and beyond..(It is still Iconised today)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Wiki encyclopedia states that Khalid bin Barghash of Zanzibar.
Sayyid Khalid bin Barghash Al-Busaid (1874 – 1927) (Arabic: خالد بن برغش البوسعيد‎) was the sixth Sultan of Zanzibar and the eldest son of the second Sultan of Zanzibar, Sayyid Barghash bin Said Al-Busaid. Khalid briefly ruled Zanzibar (from August 25 to August 27, 1896), seizing power after the sudden death of his cousin Hamad bin Thuwaini of Zanzibar who many suspect was poisoned by Khalid. Britain refused to recognize his claim to the throne, citing a treaty from 1866 which stated that a new Sultan could only accede to the throne with British permission, resulting in the Anglo-Zanzibar War in which Khalid's palace and harem were shelled by British vessels for 38 minutes, killing 500 defenders, before a surrender was received. Khalid fled his palace to take refuge in the German consulate from which he was smuggled to German East Africa where he received political asylum. He was captured by British forces at Dar es Salaam in 1916 and was exiled to the Seychelles and Saint Helena before being allowed to return to East Africa where he died in Mombasa in 1927.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 10th February 2013 at 07:31 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2013, 11:40 AM   #14
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams all ~ Earliest known picture of an Omani Battle Sword seen on a sketch of Sultan Bin Bargash though actually quite late in the 19th C. proving that it was Iconised and carried by Royalty and well on into the early 20th C and beyond..(It is still Iconised today)


Dear Ibrahiim,

The image you have presented lacks the traditional quillons of the earlier sword types and the length and width of the sword pictured is in line with the type you claim are only dance swords.

With respect, I suggest, based on the image you have shown above and the larger detail I have presented below, that Khalid bin Barghash's sword is a long handled fighting sword of the later type you refer to as dance swords.

Regards

Gavin
Attached Images
 
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2013, 12:46 PM   #15
Michael Blalock
Member
 
Michael Blalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: dc
Posts: 266
Default

I have always attributed the sword in this image as the earlier type. I believe the hilt has some silver cladding that softens the silouet but the quillions are definitely there.
Michael Blalock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2013, 06:04 AM   #16
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Dear Ibrahiim,

The image you have presented lacks the traditional quillons of the earlier sword types and the length and width of the sword pictured is in line with the type you claim are only dance swords.

With respect, I suggest, based on the image you have shown above and the larger detail I have presented below, that Khalid bin Barghash's sword is a long handled fighting sword of the later type you refer to as dance swords.

Regards

Gavin


Salaams ~ Please look again at the sketch.. It shows a straight Old Omani Battle Sword with obvious turned down quillons. Dancing swords (straight Sayf) and Kattara (Curved) longhilts didn't have quillons.

Note that I show this sketch to illustrate how late the weapon was being worn..thus in a way it was the caretaker fighting sword all the way through the Gunpowder revolution.

It would perhaps be of some benefit if you re-read the massive detail contained in the library at Kattara for comments which acts as the anchor and main source to this thread. I think that will put us on the same page.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2013, 06:08 AM   #17
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default The image

Good people, you'll have to circle the quillons because all I see is a oval disc behind the hilt....

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2013, 06:10 AM   #18
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blalock
I have always attributed the sword in this image as the earlier type. I believe the hilt has some silver cladding that softens the silouet but the quillions are definitely there.



Salaams Michael Blalock, Yes correct it may have silver cladding since the individual Khalid bin Bargash being royalty and in the 1860/70s would likely have sported the Royal Style hilt but of course this is only a sketch. Never the less the quillons are there thus proving its an Old Omani Battle Sword. Thank you for your post.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2013, 06:14 AM   #19
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Good people, you'll have to circle the quillons because all I see is a oval disc behind the hilt....

Gavin



Salaams ~Kindly look at post# 12 and compare.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 07:19 AM   #20
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams ~Kindly look at post# 12 and compare.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Ibrahiim, the sword in #12 is not the sword in the drawing....there are no visible quillons in the drawing, do look closer.

Regards

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 12:37 PM   #21
Richard G
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 195
Default

I think I can see the quillons
Regards
Richard
Attached Images
 
Richard G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 01:31 PM   #22
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Ibrahiim, the sword in #12 is not the sword in the drawing....there are no visible quillons in the drawing, do look closer.

Regards

Gavin



Salaams. Did I say it was the same sword? I think not. Use any example of any Omani Battle Sword on thread and compare.

The sword in the sketch is with turned down quillons in the exact style of The Omani Battle Sword . Further if you consider the tubular (and usually octagonal tubular shape of the hilt) it additionally identifies this as such.

Moreover, Dancing swords, The Straight Omani Sayf, have flattened conical hilts broadening toward the frontal cuff and no crossguard or quillons as such.

Also reverse engineering this individual regarding his weapons~ he would be very unlikely to wear a dancing sword since it would be he (as Royalty) that the large congregation of march past contingent actually salute ...by waving and buzzing their dancing swords in the air as part of the tradition. Sultans don't dance ...

He on the other hand would be wearing a different sword. This one would be ideal as it likely had ... like the hilt of the Khanjar he is seen with in the same sketch... a Royal hilt Iconized and designed by one of the wives(Sheherezad) of the previous Sultan. As was his Royal turban.


The outline by Richard G further puts the point.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 01:43 PM   #23
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G
I think I can see the quillons
Regards
Richard


Thank you or higlighting this Richard.

I can see a very straight handle leading in to a Quillon block that sits atop the scabbard and being the same width as the sabbard throat, a lot like the Yemen types discussed, but to my eye, the white disc does not appear to be of the same form as the quillon block and quillons of these old swords. From what has been published in these pages, if it was called a Yemen example of the type I would somewhat agree more.

I can see to the left side something that could be considered a quillon end, but looking at left side versus the right side, the left side is higher...run a straight line squarely up from the horizontal line of the scabbard throat.

Also note that the white oval marked as the quillon block and quillons is oval in its entire form. These older swords, whilst having a slight curve to this area do not adopt an oval form as this white oval does, but ends in vertical quillons and lobed ends...the white disc does not clearly show this old form to my eye.

Even with your point being taken, I do not think this image, that can draw several visual appreciations, can be considered conclusive that it is the pure "Oman" type of the older sword. The blade's narrow width and long length is also somewhat of a rarer sword when comparing to the "type". If it is "old world", the quillon block shape would surely be considered unique and more in line with those that has been classified as "Yemeni", perhaps the Yemen attribution of these other swords discussed needs to be explored further for intermarriage.



PS, I must be a Sultan too, I don't dance and love waiving swords around.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 01:58 PM   #24
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

I missed the Royal hilted sword above and agree it could be of this type as it has the curves and size of the quillon block the others don't have along wth the more pronounced grip running in to it....which leads me to ask, what type of blades does this sword have as I doubt it is a "battle sword" of the true old type

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 02:02 PM   #25
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Morava - Olomoucký kraj - Czech Republic
Posts: 1,489
Default

I think I can see it - perhaps this enlarged, sharpened and labelled image will help - obviously not the pinnacle of graphic design...

It's very hard to tell on an image of this resolution.
Attached Images
 
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 02:08 PM   #26
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

That is excellent Iain, it shows he shading in the pixels much clearer.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 02:11 PM   #27
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

Ibrahiim, thank you for bearing with me, the hole in the quillon that Iain has shown convinces me of the type absolutely.
Now you'll just have to convince me the "dance form" sword was only always for dance...never a fight, despite thick heavy fighting blades in the type...

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 02:16 PM   #28
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Thank you or higlighting this Richard.

I can see a very straight handle leading in to a Quillon block that sits atop the scabbard and being the same width as the sabbard throat, a lot like the Yemen types discussed, but to my eye, the white disc does not appear to be of the same form as the quillon block and quillons of these old swords. From what has been published in these pages, if it was called a Yemen example of the type I would somewhat agree more.

I can see to the left side something that could be considered a quillon end, but looking at left side versus the right side, the left side is higher...run a straight line squarely up from the horizontal line of the scabbard throat.

Also note that the white oval marked as the quillon block and quillons is oval in its entire form. These older swords, whilst having a slight curve to this area do not adopt an oval form as this white oval does, but ends in vertical quillons and lobed ends...the white disc does not clearly show this old form to my eye.

Even with your point being taken, I do not think this image, that can draw several visual appreciations, can be considered conclusive that it is the pure "Oman" type of the older sword. The blade's narrow width and long length is also somewhat of a rarer sword when comparing to the "type". If it is "old world", the quillon block shape would surely be considered unique and more in line with those that has been classified as "Yemeni", perhaps the Yemen attribution of these other swords discussed needs to be explored further for intermarriage.



PS, I must be a Sultan too, I don't dance and love waiving swords around.



Salaams ~ The attribution of the Yemeni swords by which I assume you mean the ones perhaps related to the Military museum exhibits is being fully aired on its own thread.

The anchor thread with a full and complete detail of the Abbassiid Omani Sword technology shift which spawned the Omani Battle Sword is at ''Kattara for comments" and ideal now as a background forum library reference. The Omani Sayf or Dancing Sword has its own thread as does the Omani Kattara because they are all completely different blades and separate entities. The linkage between the Sayf and Kattara is in the long hilt form which may or may not be related to the Yemeni longhilt. (personally however, I think they are related) Separating the different swords allows each to be examined much more carefully so we can all wave them about whilst jumping up and down instead of pulling our hair out trying to fathom which is which.

Essentially there are 4 Omani Swords;

1.The Omani Battle Sword.
2.The Straight Sayf Dancing Sword.
3.The Curved Kattara.
4.The Omani Shamshiir (not yet launched as a thread).

I am delighted that you can see the quillons on the sketch of Sultan Bargashs Omani Battle Sword.

I will be delighted to convince you about the dancing sword in due course ... and on the other thread ya of course. The background detail is also contained in Kattara for comments and I am extracting details all the time from there.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 02:25 PM   #29
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
I think I can see it - perhaps this enlarged, sharpened and labelled image will help - obviously not the pinnacle of graphic design...

It's very hard to tell on an image of this resolution.




Brilliant Iain ~ One day someone will teach me how to do that ! There are several give aways on determining the sword... all noted by you plus of course theres the scabbard style and the fact that Sultans don't wear dancing swords. The Tubular hilt and the very obvious quillons etc etc make it very clear but thats ok for me to say since Im sitting here with a real Omani Battle Sword on my desk ... and as you point out this is only a sketch...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2013, 01:45 PM   #30
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,776
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Another spotted in the book (Richardson and Dorr).
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.