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27th January 2013, 11:04 PM
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The Plot Thickens..............
Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts. The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya. Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN. I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item. There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out. Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced. So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads. Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer. Comments Gentlemen please 
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28th January 2013, 06:47 AM
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#2 | |
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Salaams Khanjar 1. When we were looking at the Sayf Yamaani.. The Old Omani Battle Sword ... in preparation for cladding the hilt in leather we looked at the Muscat National Museum and Bayt Zubair Museum for examples and took our lead from theirs. As I recall the Al Ain Museum also has an example, however, that one may not be covered. I researched another big private collection of 25 such weapons and discussed the issue with the owner and we all agreed with the Muscat Museums restoration. Naturally hilts of that vintage had lost their leather hilt covers. In addition I only saw one or two with actual scabbards though one of mine with scabbard is in the TRM Museum in Quwait. The hilts in Muscat Museums have also some with long strips of leather counterwoven in a sort of zig zag style onto the hilts and some are complete one piece covers as you show. (We followed the same style of "scabbard" in the restored swords also.) On the subject of re used Rhino sword hilts for Jambia I have not seen any in original form thus the concept is likely based on a story that so far as I can deduce holds water and is feasible though I have never seen an original. As in all detective work it is really only proven 100% when a real MCoy turns up but the indicators are there for a reasonable assumption to prevail for now.... otherwise we would be at a standstill all over the spectrum no? Absolute certainty is a rare commodity in these matters and in the case of new information it is important to consider all things in that new light. In view of that I think it right that the Red Sea long hilt be placed under the forum microscope since it could be a very interesting one to unravel. The blade is long and stiff and not the dancing blade of Oman by any means. Is this a fighting blade? Did it have a round tip or a point? Where was it made Yemen Saudia or both or Yemen in the old days and then the area was absorbed into Saudia? (I use the word Saudia to indicate an area rather than historically time wise) The hilt is intriguing being like a stretched version of the Omani Battler in many respects and it would be interesting to know if the two are actually related. We have seen how the region in southern Saudia has been influenced by the Muscat Khanjar/Royal Khanjar so perhaps the same thing happened with this sword in a similar time scale i.e. mid 19th C. Or is this purely co-incidence? You mention the leather scabbard cover ... Indeed this could be an indicator of provenance since often they covered weapons with wolf skin..which is what I suspect is on the photo...to ward off evil spirits and strengthen the sword/owner..thus it is a Talismanic effect. On the question of hilt cover? This is a long meaty heavy blade and for practical reasons if it was a sword I see no reason why it wasn't covered but I have never seen one covered nor do I know for sure what it was used for. I am not certain where the ensemble originates either as they appear in Yemen and Saudia museums and souks. I have Ethiopian blades rehilted on this style but suggest that this is a red herring..but caution that the hilt does in fact follow the monumental style of the Horn of Africa hilts so that area cannot be ruled out yet. Further intrigue is posed by the comparison of the hilt to the long Omani dancing hilt and the slavers curved sword style... both commomly refered to as the Long Omani Hilt and what relationship if any there is between them. Could it be for example that the Red Sea metal hilt and sword was the forerunner to the Dancing Sayf (and the slavers style hilt) or vica-versa or totally unrelated? In conclusion the debate is, so far as I can see, entirely open, thus, any ideas from anyone are welcome. Looking ahead I refer readers to Michael Blalocks http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum and an example is at #1 but it is at #14 that another question arrises... Are these Red Sea variants supposedly from Yemen / Saudia related to the sword in the Wallace collection ~ see # 14. Staying for a final moment to view the picture in the museum on the same page at reference there is what appears to be a German blade on one of the long Red Sea variant hilts.  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th January 2013 at 07:57 AM. |
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28th January 2013, 11:38 AM
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#3 |
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Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here?
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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28th January 2013, 07:26 PM
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28th January 2013, 07:51 PM
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#5 |
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It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin. I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference. Regards Stu |
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29th January 2013, 05:54 AM
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#6 |
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Hi Stu!
Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in.  Cheers, - Thor |
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29th January 2013, 06:02 AM
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#7 | |
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I am no expert in these but also thought that Piso somewhat out of place.....I understand that the pic was taken at a Military Museum In Yemen. Michael may respond to this and clarify for us. Regards Stu |
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29th January 2013, 02:37 PM
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#8 | |
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Salaams kahnjar1 ~ Yes, I thought that's what we were doing?...trying to ascertain whether or not ? Try prefixing the concept with the tried and tested formula- where, what, why, when, how and who? It often works. Further more~ and checking back through the forum library there is nothing set in "stone" here (scuse pun) and quite often a fresh look uncovers unforseen detail. For example what if the Mamluke style of sword blade on post #31 of this thread is related and is there any link to the Omani Battle Sword hilt? Not least in the questionaire is when did it appear, who used it (and for what?) and where? What I do know is this is from the Red Sea region and is absolutely not Omani... #1 I believe holds the key...since it becomes clearly obvious that the hilt which has some age to it was made to fit this specific style of weapon therefor it was all made at the same time hilt, blade and scabbard...perhaps focus on that. After that, the field is wide open for a "forum" solution. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th January 2013 at 02:58 PM. |
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29th January 2013, 02:24 PM
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#9 | |
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Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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29th January 2013, 05:11 PM
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#10 | |
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Quote:
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys.
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29th January 2013, 05:38 PM
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#11 | |
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Blinkers off !!
Quote:
Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold... We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out. I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword". The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research. You never know it could be important ! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th January 2013 at 05:49 PM. |
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4th February 2013, 05:09 PM
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#12 |
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Salaams Note to Library; see post 27, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 for developments in Red Sea swords and the design flow between Abbasiid, Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani variants.
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 5th February 2013 at 04:49 PM. |
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5th February 2013, 07:51 PM
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#13 |
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Wrapped Hilt Covering
Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.
Last edited by kahnjar1; 6th February 2013 at 03:57 AM. |
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6th February 2013, 04:23 PM
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Salaams kahnjar1 ~There are several ways to wrap a hilt. It can be simply wrapped round and round like the one in your photo or as one piece or woven rather in a zig zag better described as platted wrap. I note that the haphazzard way in which the sword wrapping is presented could mean that this is a random repair thus not an original form of wrap.. Interestingly on the Omani Battle Sword there are 3 holes (2 for rivvets) the top hole near the pommel is for a wrist strap. The strap anchor hole on this sword seems to be covered. What is also important in your picture is the silver inlay script on the pommel... not on all swords... but it is thought on some perhaps to glorify a particular event/battle, a religious incantation, or to add/display the power and rank of the owner. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th February 2013 at 06:27 PM. |
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6th February 2013, 06:56 PM
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#15 |
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Wrist Strap Hole ???????????
You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please. |
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8th February 2013, 04:57 AM
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#16 | |
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If you can see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 all of the pictures of my Omani Battle Swords have wrist strap holes. The covered hilts that are fully covered havent had a hole bored in the leather as yet...except the centre one which in fact has a cotter pin in the top hole...which was in the original but may have been added by the previous owner. Invariably this top hole is about quarter of an inch from the pommel. Interestingly there is also a cotter pin in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 at #9 which is a Mamluke variant similar to the style that I compared the Omani Battle Sword to in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 The hilts are not done in my workshops but are in pretty well natural as found condition with the rust removed...and with the core of wood replaced since the existing ones were rotted out. We used the original rivvets where possible. The only additions are the leather work. Of course, we take pride in getting the detail right which is why we observe the museum items carefully first, thus, we would never recommend this to amateurs. We also have a number of swords actually in museums. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th February 2013 at 05:44 AM. |
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11th February 2013, 03:49 AM
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#17 | |
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1.The skin used for the drag is not goat in my opinion, and could very well be lion as was suggested by the seller, as the remaining hair is quite thick. ....not like goat hair at all, which is much finer. 2.The fitting of scabbard to hilt is the same method as in Swedegreen's swords.....wooden tongue sliding inside the silver dressing of the hilt. 3. The hilt itself is impossible to grip securely so I would have thought that there was originally some sort of covering. Unless the users hands were VERY small the sword would slip easily in use. Other than the above observations, the whole shows good age, and IMHO has not been artificially aged in any way... Why would one cover the scabbard with skin and then rub most of the hair off?? Regards Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 11th February 2013 at 05:31 AM. |
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11th February 2013, 06:41 AM
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#18 | |
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Salaams. The Yemeni Sword. (Long Hilt.) This sword has nothing to do with the Yemeni items tuned up with backyard hilts to sell to tourists. That is not to say that it isn't a sword that tourists buy since many are sitting in Muscats Muttrah souk and being bought by tourists... The two, however, belong to different kettles of fish. This sword which is related to the Ottoman type in the Istanbul Military Museum (thus Mamluke and Abbassiid) is attributed to Yemeni style of metalic longhilt in the general family of Red Sea Variants I have mentioned many times previously. It appears as a leftover copied design from Ottoman garrisons into the Yemeni armouries (probably "Askeri" equivalent palace guard or militia swords) I would suggest that these belong in the southern part of what is now Saudi Arabia but was Yemen pre about 1920. They ''seem'' to be late copies perhaps mid 18th to mid 19th C going by the blades and hilt finish. Being likely contenders of Yemeni manufacture I would suspect Hadramaut as the blade construction point... or even the other side of the water in Sudan or Ethiopia even? The blade style could conceivably have been supplied completely from late Ottoman sources. There is one picture of a man holding one such blade below... and that is on an Ottoman ~ Mamluke Hilt. Does your blade also compare with that? They may be distantly related to the Wallace style but that is a huge step and further they may have some bearing upon the Omani longhilts both in the curved ( The Omani Kattara) and straight (The Omani Sayf) variety of blades now correctly discussed under their own separate banners. I have seen several rehilted Ethiopian (German) blades on these hilts and have to report that most blades arrive into Muscat Souk without scabbards from Sanaa. The opener pictures at #1 puts that right immediately and the weapons can be seen as made deliberately as one unit along with the scabbard style. The blades in the Yemeni versions are not flexible other than a few inches either way. The skin may be goat. It may also be wolf... which is far more likely as there was little credibility in decorating a scabbard with a goat piece. Wolf is the more likely from the talismanic viewpoint. The hilt as you point out is far too thin to have no cover on it and the metal, being iron, would need to be covered since it attracts evil. If my theory is correct these are indeed a separate breed of Sword and since they were probably militia weapons they are thus likely to be swords in the proper sense and this fact is firmly supported by the Istanbul and Yemeni museum pictures. More interestingly they may be the trigger that influenced the design style in what I have earmarked as 18/19th C Omani Kattara and Sayf variants on long hilts since that region (specifically) was closely linked to sea trade with Muscat-Zanzibar and it was from Oman that they took their design for one of their Jambias (from either the Muscat and / or The Royal Khanjar style) in what I believe was the same period about 1744 to 1850. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th February 2013 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Yemeni Sword. |
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11th February 2013, 07:24 AM
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#19 |
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Salaams Ibrahiim,
The blade does NOT resemble that shown above. The single SHALLOW fuller more resembles that in Swedegreen's pic at #1 (top sword). The one in the above pic appears deep and narrow rather than broad and shallow. Stu |
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11th February 2013, 07:39 AM
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#20 | |
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Salaams, It would be an advantage to show the blade would it not? I mean deep and shallow, broad and narrow are hardly indicative when a picture would be highly beneficial.. Do you think it looks like this one (The long hilted Yemeni Sword ) ? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th February 2013 at 08:16 AM. |
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11th February 2013, 06:58 PM
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Regards Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 11th February 2013 at 07:52 PM. |
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12th February 2013, 05:35 AM
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Salaams. Well we are nearly there... can you show the entire blade so that normal Forum inspection may be made and so the length of the fuller and blade tip etc. can be viewed ?
I'm not sure what you are implying with your flexibility statement ...For example; Are you saying that because it's flexible it makes it a combat sword? or its lack of flexibility? How much flex does it have about 2inch or a more full 90 degrees? These are normally quite stiff blades with a few inches of flex not more. Personally I think that this is a separate Yemeni breed and that it was a combat sword, however, I think we first have to decide what level of flexibility these swords have and in denoting what the essential blade parameters are before embarking on that equation. What you may have is a Red Sea blade stuck on a Yemeni Hilt. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 12th February 2013 at 06:01 AM. |
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