Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

Jean · 20th December 2012, 09:53 AM

Attached are the pictures of a similar hilt also made from hippo ivory I think, please note that the crest and "nose" have been damaged. The piece from Gustav may have been dyed as normally hippo ivory stays very white even after a long time (I saw few exceptions though).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2012, 11:08 AM

Over perhaps a few years now I have read the many and various posts and opinions on hilts made from supposedly hippo ivory, walrus ivory, this ivory, that ivory, and some other ivory. I've looked at close-up pictures of dotted lines that supposedly prove that the material is hippo ivory, I've looked at pictures of vague ivory grains that supposedly prove the material is some other sort of ivory. It seems almost everybody knows more about this exotic discipline of ivory identification than I do, so I have pretty much stayed out of the discussion.

However, it seems to me that somewhere, sometime during the last forty odd years of visits to Indonesia and long wandering conversations with collectors and dealers in keris and other objects in Indonesia, I would have heard some mention of hippo ivory. But I never have.

It seems that in my reading on historic trade links with the Old East Indies I would have somewhere stumbled across some mention of hippo ivory coming into what is now Indonesia. I never have.

The hilts that I see presented as hippo ivory seem to be almost universally described by dealers and collectors in Indonesia as "tulang ikan" = "fish bone", or "gigi ikan paus" = "whale tooth". I've never heard even the smallest whisper of "kuda nil", or "badak sungai" = hippopotamus.

Now, I'm not saying that this total absence of any acknowledgement by the people most closely concerned with keris, and most especially with the extraction of money from the trade in keris, is evidence that these hilts of supposedly hippo ivory are indeed, not hippo ivory. But it does seem strange that if the possibility is there, that these incredibly clever traders would ignore the chance to raise the exotica stakes a notch or two by throwing some hippo into the money mix.

So, is it barely possible that this hippo business is just another collector myth?

Where is the beginning and foundation for these claims that some hilts are made from hippo ivory?

Do we have any good, solid, incontrovertible evidence of just one hilt that is beyond the shadow of any doubt made of hippo ivory?

Or do we have opinions that choose to ignore the accumulated knowledge of the demographic most closely associated with the keris?

Quite frankly, I had never heard even the smallest suggestion that those poor old hippos in far away Africa had been contributing their body parts to the glorification of keris in Maritime South East Asia, until very recently.

I'd really like to try to understand how the whole thing happened.

Can somebody point me at an academic paper, or article, or report where an adequate analysis of the materials used in keris hilts demonstrates beyond any doubt that hippo ivory was used to create just one hilt? Or possibly some old trade inventories that list hippo ivory coming into Batavia or some other port in the Old Indies?

asomotif · 20th December 2012, 12:38 PM

Dear Allan,

Interesting question.
Antique dealers and also antique magazines in the west more or less agree that the dotted line indicates hippo ivory.
But I must believe you when you say this term is not used in Indonesia.

Best would be to go to the source and check with the people making these hilts. Do they ever have pieces of hippo ivory in stock ?
Have you ever seen the raw materials in Indonesia which they use ? this would indeed be very intersting.

Best regards,
Willem

Jean · 20th December 2012, 01:38 PM

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts.

Regards

Sajen · 20th December 2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts.

Regards

Agree in all points with you Jean and know also what Willem write about hippo ivory. Never have seen a hippo ivory hilt from Java or Bali.

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 20th December 2012, 06:01 PM

I have seen numerous examples of Hippo Tooth for sale on gunbroker.com .
Usually from a Seller located in Florida .

rasdan · 20th December 2012, 06:56 PM

I also believe that the sample above is actually hippo ivory. Not much evidence to form a basis of my belief apart from the dotted line present on hippo ivory matches with the one on these hilts and the following observations.

I noticed that there are 3 main types of ivory normally used to make keris hilts. Elephant (with cross hatch), "hippo" (mainly refered to as "gigi ikan" with the dots) and another one with no dots or cross hatch. The third type is normally smaller in size. Probably this is the real "gigi ikan"?

The thing about "gigi ikan" versus elephant ivory and hippo's tooth is that, some people here consider "gigi ikan" as clean while elephant ivory and hippo (if that is the material) as unclean according to teachings in Islam. Probably this is the reason why the material is being presented as gigi ikan in the first place.

Currently, "hippo" ivory fetches a bit higher price here as opposed to elephant ivory (probably for the above reason) However when we look to old Malay saying "Sudah dapat gading betuah, tanduk tidak berguna lagi". Meaning a person had something much more valuable (elephant ivory) compared to horn.

If "gigi ikan" is being regarded highly in the old days, probably the saying will say "sudah dapat gigi ikan bertuah...." but this is not the case. (Notice that the cleanliness issue does not seem to play any role here) Probably people the really old times are not aware or does not subscribe to the belief that elephant ivory are unclean hence the above old saying. Therefore, my speculation that this "gigi ikan" thing is actually market driven due to the cleanliness issue that arose not very long ago.

But, it's just my speculation that is built on a very brittle foundation..

Jean · 21st December 2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I have seen numerous examples of Hippo Tooth for sale on gunbroker.com .
Usually from a Seller located in Florida .

Hello Rick,
Yes indeed, if you google "hippo ivory sale" you will find this site which proposes many tusks at a very attractive price (cheaper than registered elephant ivory).
Regards

Gustav · 20th December 2012, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.

Jean, I would be very interested in a written evidence regarding this point, becouse I searched for it and found nothing that would support a theory of direct trade between Bugis and Africa.

Jean · 21st December 2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Jean, I would be very interested in a written evidence regarding this point, becouse I searched for it and found nothing that would support a theory of direct trade between Bugis and Africa.

Hello Gustav,
Alan replied to this point and he is fully correct that some of the Madagascar people are from mixed Malay origin. I will try to find more written evidence about the subject.
Regards

Gustav · 21st December 2012, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Gustav,
Alan replied to this point and he is fully correct that some of the Madagascar people are from mixed Malay origin. I will try to find more written evidence about the subject.
Regards

Jean, Madagascar people had nothing to do with Bugis trade. Regarding the settlement of Madagascar, it is still absolutely unclear if it was a deliberate act (more or less regular visits of Austronesians) or an accident. As I understand, the latest insights incline to see it as an onetime accident. More clear seems now, these people should be of South Borneo origin, and for sure this settlement was completed before 900 AD.

As I said, I searched a while ago about Bugis trade, and I even don't have found evidence Bugis traded directly with Ceylon=the Bugis vessels have reached Ceylon.

20th December 2012, 09:53 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Attached are the pictures of a similar hilt also made from hippo ivory I think, please note that the crest and "nose" have been damaged. The piece from Gustav may have been dyed as normally hippo ivory stays very white even after a long time (I saw few exceptions though). Regards Attached Images

20th December 2012, 06:01 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hippo Teeth I have seen numerous examples of Hippo Tooth for sale on gunbroker.com . Usually from a Seller located in Florida .

20th December 2012, 11:08 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Over perhaps a few years now I have read the many and various posts and opinions on hilts made from supposedly hippo ivory, walrus ivory, this ivory, that ivory, and some other ivory. I've looked at close-up pictures of dotted lines that supposedly prove that the material is hippo ivory, I've looked at pictures of vague ivory grains that supposedly prove the material is some other sort of ivory. It seems almost everybody knows more about this exotic discipline of ivory identification than I do, so I have pretty much stayed out of the discussion. However, it seems to me that somewhere, sometime during the last forty odd years of visits to Indonesia and long wandering conversations with collectors and dealers in keris and other objects in Indonesia, I would have heard some mention of hippo ivory. But I never have. It seems that in my reading on historic trade links with the Old East Indies I would have somewhere stumbled across some mention of hippo ivory coming into what is now Indonesia. I never have. The hilts that I see presented as hippo ivory seem to be almost universally described by dealers and collectors in Indonesia as "tulang ikan" = "fish bone", or "gigi ikan paus" = "whale tooth". I've never heard even the smallest whisper of "kuda nil", or "badak sungai" = hippopotamus. Now, I'm not saying that this total absence of any acknowledgement by the people most closely concerned with keris, and most especially with the extraction of money from the trade in keris, is evidence that these hilts of supposedly hippo ivory are indeed, not hippo ivory. But it does seem strange that if the possibility is there, that these incredibly clever traders would ignore the chance to raise the exotica stakes a notch or two by throwing some hippo into the money mix. So, is it barely possible that this hippo business is just another collector myth? Where is the beginning and foundation for these claims that some hilts are made from hippo ivory? Do we have any good, solid, incontrovertible evidence of just one hilt that is beyond the shadow of any doubt made of hippo ivory? Or do we have opinions that choose to ignore the accumulated knowledge of the demographic most closely associated with the keris? Quite frankly, I had never heard even the smallest suggestion that those poor old hippos in far away Africa had been contributing their body parts to the glorification of keris in Maritime South East Asia, until very recently. I'd really like to try to understand how the whole thing happened. Can somebody point me at an academic paper, or article, or report where an adequate analysis of the materials used in keris hilts demonstrates beyond any doubt that hippo ivory was used to create just one hilt? Or possibly some old trade inventories that list hippo ivory coming into Batavia or some other port in the Old Indies?

20th December 2012, 12:38 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Dear Allan, Interesting question. Antique dealers and also antique magazines in the west more or less agree that the dotted line indicates hippo ivory. But I must believe you when you say this term is not used in Indonesia. Best would be to go to the source and check with the people making these hilts. Do they ever have pieces of hippo ivory in stock ? Have you ever seen the raw materials in Indonesia which they use ? this would indeed be very intersting. Best regards, Willem

20th December 2012, 01:38 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear Alan and Willem, Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows: . All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO. . The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence. . The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know. . All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China). . For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside. Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts. Regards

20th December 2012, 06:56 PM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	I also believe that the sample above is actually hippo ivory. Not much evidence to form a basis of my belief apart from the dotted line present on hippo ivory matches with the one on these hilts and the following observations. I noticed that there are 3 main types of ivory normally used to make keris hilts. Elephant (with cross hatch), "hippo" (mainly refered to as "gigi ikan" with the dots) and another one with no dots or cross hatch. The third type is normally smaller in size. Probably this is the real "gigi ikan"? The thing about "gigi ikan" versus elephant ivory and hippo's tooth is that, some people here consider "gigi ikan" as clean while elephant ivory and hippo (if that is the material) as unclean according to teachings in Islam. Probably this is the reason why the material is being presented as gigi ikan in the first place. Currently, "hippo" ivory fetches a bit higher price here as opposed to elephant ivory (probably for the above reason) However when we look to old Malay saying "Sudah dapat gading betuah, tanduk tidak berguna lagi". Meaning a person had something much more valuable (elephant ivory) compared to horn. If "gigi ikan" is being regarded highly in the old days, probably the saying will say "sudah dapat gigi ikan bertuah...." but this is not the case. (Notice that the cleanliness issue does not seem to play any role here) Probably people the really old times are not aware or does not subscribe to the belief that elephant ivory are unclean hence the above old saying. Therefore, my speculation that this "gigi ikan" thing is actually market driven due to the cleanliness issue that arose not very long ago. But, it's just my speculation that is built on a very brittle foundation..