Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

[Henk]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Henk

Sorry for the late answer.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

Thank you for the reply, Henk. Exactly that was my starting position.

[David]

Originally Posted by Henk

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

While i don't automatically agree with everything Mr. Maisey has to say, if there is one thing i do consider him expert in it is the Javanese keris, as he has made it a lifetime's study and is the only member here that i am aware of who apprenticed to a kraton mpu. So i am likely to accept his position stated in post #13 that this blade is not from Jawa or Madura.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, I have already stated that I am quite comfortable in my opinion that this is not a keris that was made in Jawa.

I am very seldom positive in my opinions unless I have good reason to be so, however, it is an opinion I have given, and any opinion from any person can be incorrect.

The link between various areas in Sumatra and Jawa is well known; the political links between Palembang and the House of Mataram is well known; the trade in Javanese blades throughout South East Asia is well known; the propensity of local smiths in areas outside Jawa to copy Javanese workmanship is well known. Nothing new in any of this.The trade in Javanese blades was well established by the 16th century, and is mentioned in the Book of Duarte Barbosa.

But when we look at a keris, we need to be able to do a lot better than just say:- "oh yes, its Javanese", or "oh yes, it could be Javanese".

We need to be able to say from where in Jawa it originated and at approximately what time. We need to be able to give it at the very least an approximate classification.

With the blade in question, although there are certain characteristics that have a Javanese quality to them, such as the gonjo, and a Madurese quality, such as the kembang kacang, the sogokan is not Javanese in nature, and especially the poyuhan is very uncharacteristic of Javanese garap. The pawakan is not characteristic of Javanese work, and the greneng, most especially the ron dha looks as if it has been cut by a blind man with palsy. It is terrible --- if we consider it as Javanese --- but for many of the other places where greneng and ron dha appear it is quite a usual representation. This is because in those other places the makers did not really understand the iconography of the greneng and the ron dha:- like virtually all people outside the pande clan, all they saw was a series of notches.

However, we can ignore all of that, and just look at the nature of the pamor and the exposure of the core of the blade. The way in which this has been done is something I have never seen in a Javanese blade, this has distinctly Bugis characteristics.

As I have said:- I have given an opinion, and any opinion can be wrong, but in this case I would need one hell of a lot of convincing that this opinion of mine is wrong.

[Henk]

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.
Your skills and education in keris as your native tongue can nail this issue way better down than i can. If i have to write down what you did it would take me a lot of time more. Time is at the moment very limited for me.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Henk

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

Henk, if this is so: I would be very thankful, if you could find some more time and comment on this blade, which also looks Javanese and also is mounted in Kedah dress. I would much appreciate your oppinion, put in a few necessary words.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Nice.
Looks again like a locally crafted blade to me.

Sorry for coming back to this thread late - will add more comments later. Please add a few pics of the whole keris for future reference, too.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, is it possible to provide a clearer image of the greneng?