Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[SwedeGreen]

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

Salaams SwedeGreen No. The 4 Saudia Yemeni swords are newish ~ perhaps about 50 years old but nothing to do with Omani swords or the Omani sword dates of 751 or 1744. The scabbards are worn but probably about the same vintage(50 years?),... Solar and sand degradation on leather is very punishing.
(I replied to your inquiry the other day.)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[SwedeGreen]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you again. Got it, 20th Century Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs

Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Recently there were published here, some pics of the so called Omani Battle Sword which had recently had modern made covering added to the bare hilt, and scabbards made.
My question relates to the Yemeni/Saudi swords which feature in this thread. Did they ever have a covering over the metal handle, and if so, what did it look like?
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Recently there were published here, some pics of the so called Omani Battle Sword which had recently had modern made covering added to the bare hilt, and scabbards made.
My question relates to the Yemeni/Saudi swords which feature in this thread. Did they ever have a covering over the metal handle, and if so, what did it look like?
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1. This is an excellent question.

In respect of the pictures at #1, which you describe as Yemeni / Saudi swords I suspected that these were like the backyard knocking shop redone hilts on European blades at a recent thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16605 and having replaced Rhino holts later used on Jambia... the resulting swords then spuriously offered through other souks and marketed generally as ethnographic items etc etc i.e. tourist swords. ( I now suggest that this was incorrect and a re-appraisal is required insofar as these long Saudia Yemen hilts)

Conversely I have never seen a leather covered hilt on these long metal hilts AND THUS THE REAPPRAISAL OFFERED BY A CLOSER SCRUTINY OF # 1. What makes it so suspicious is the quantity at which they are appearing... Mutrah has scores of them. It is for this reason that I suspected that they were in plentiful supply having perhaps been done relatively recently and in the same time frame and reasoning as the others. In other words they appeared direct from the Yemeni / Saudia workshops direct onto the local and neighboring countries markets as metal hilts with virtually no provenance. ( THIS IS NOW REFUTED BACKED UP BY THE SCABBARD SHOTS AT 1)

Having carefully looked at #1 pictures with scabbards I begin to reframe on that hypothesis and for that reason urge a re-opening on the debate since The scabbards look like they were deliberately fitted at the same time as the hilts...which look old(Whereas most examples I have seen are without scabbards)...It begs the question "What is the provenance on these long metal hilts" ?

I think we could be looking at a species of Yemeni/Saudia Sword from the 19th C or before with a related hilt to the Omani Battle Sword except that it is stretched to conform with the longer blade for balance.

It can be noted therefor that this is a see-sawing debate as originally that was mooted on the longer thread on Omani Kattara but changed.

This is entirely different from Omani Battle Swords which as you are aware are the only true battlesword in the Omani Armoury. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please