Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[A.alnakkas]

hey, welcome to the forum.

As per forum rules, we cannot do values here BUT these are interesting swords, some suggest them to be Omani while others suggest them to be Yemeni. Judging from the mounts I guess they are Omani :-)

[Emanuel]

Hi Johnny, welcome to this forum as well.

I'm glad you joined and posted. I look forward to a resolution on this.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

[SwedeGreen]

Thank you to Jim, Emanuel (again), and Mr. Alnakkas for your welcome and info. I seem to have broken two Forum rules already so excuse me and thanks for your patience.

I'll study the forums on Kattaras while enjoying all of the rich information from the rest of this interesting field.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Emanuel]

Wow I'm confused

So...the sayf is straight, the kattara is curved, the old Omani battle swords were called Yamani Sayf, and this type of hilt was identified by Ibrahiim as the older, original long kattara handle, before it was simplified to the tapered one we know.

So are these old, long Omani Yamani Sayfs missing quillons? They seem quite substantial with good blades, and they seem to have some age, so why modern and ceremonial?

For reference, here are the most recent relevant threads:
Kattara for comments
You may know them as Omani Saifs but they will always be Kattara to me

All the best,
Emanuel

[Rick]

Agree, they are the oldest looking 'modern' swords that I have seen in a long time .

Can you elaborate, Jim ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ These are Saudia swords and often found in Yemen close to the Saudia border. I have shown examples on Kattara for comment. The blades are not flexible though they often sport a single short fuller or sometimes a long fuller in the Ethiopian style which I suspect is on the first sword illustrated.
The hilt bears an uncanny relationship to the old Omani battle sword in that it appears similar yet somehow stretched. So far as I can see however they are unrelated otherwise.
I have an identical hilt fitted to an Ethiopian blade(originally German) Michael Blalock has shown similar swords from both regional souks and military museums. Occasionally they pitch up in Muscat Souk but are also very common in Sanaa.
It appears that there is a link through sword style to the Mamluke period which in turn copied styles of Abbasiid swords.

These are absolutely not Omani types.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

Salaams Jim, These swords are from Saudia/Yemen and whilst they look a little bit like the Omani variant saif... or dancing saif... they aren't. The blades are quite stiff. The odd looking hilts look similar to the old Omani battle sword, though, stretched and crude. I suspect a Hadramaut hand in the blade making and other blades which I have encountered in this Red Sea variant include Ethiopian... one of which I have. Michael Blalock lists this style with photos from both Yemen and Saudia souk and museum.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A.alnakkas]

It is safe to say that what shows up in souks (markets, like any markets around the world) is not evidence of local use. Though its really hard to pinpoint where these are from but if its from a land now encompassed by Saudi Arabia then it may offer evidence of a pre-badawi hilt type of sword? Imo Yemen is a more likely candidate as Ibrahim points out and some exist in the Yemeni museum, is it possible to contact them perhaps?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.

I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.

I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.

First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).

The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.

The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.

The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.

Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.

I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.

All the best,
Jim

[Richard G]

Johnny,
I am intrigued by the hilts on these swords:-

1, Do they all have that window or fenestration on one side? i.e. Nos 1 and 3 show the "reverse", so's to speak, of nos 2 and 4?

2, it almost looks as if the scabbard pushes up inside the hilt so that the blade can then no longer be seen through the window. On no 4 the scabbard even seems to have a tongue designed specifically for that purpose. Is this the case?

If so, I've never seen anything like that before , or any reference to it.

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.

2.I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.

3.I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.

4.First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).

5.The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.

6.The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.

7.The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.

8.Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.

9.I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]





My reference is Kattara for comment at~ http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

Salaams Jim, I hope you don't mind me numbering your paragraphs and setting the blue colour so I may reply accordingly to each one:

Para 1 Thank you for that and the support on the subject from yourself and many others on Forum. I believe the hot anvil of debate cracked this one wide open though there are a few answers to questions still to be determined such as where precisely was the Old Battle Sword made? When exactly did the dancing sword appear and thus a similar date on the conical flat long hilt...which appears on both the dancer and the slave trader weapon? Where were the dancing blades manufactured ? No evidence exists whatsoever of a European base for Omani dancing swords/blades..Red Sea swords yes, Omani dancing swords no. Where blade marks have been viewed on Omani swords these have been placed by smiths in Mussandam and other parts of Oman and where occasionally a European mark appears like moons(peter Munch style) or the running wolf they are clearly copied and in most cases roughly so.


Para 2. When I first saw these blades some time ago it set me off down a wild goose chase after a non existent sword group as I had linked them to the Old Omani Battle Sword...Sayf Yamaani... These Saudia blades are thicker and quite rigid and even a little broader at the throat. They are certainly Saudia/ Yemeni items. There may be a Hadramauti link. I cannot say if they were fighting weapons though they seem capable of it and are heavy enough. They crop up in Muscat souk and the source is Sanaa... confirmed. Whatever they were in the old days (if they were around then) they are now being sold as Arabian swords on the tourist network. I even have one of these hilts fitted with an Ethiopian (German) blade.

Para 3 and 4. Notwithstanding the International sword nomenclature... Straight swords are Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved are Kattara. As you point out ,however, the generic term for all swords here is Sayf (or Saif)

Para 5. Robert Elgood is an excellent historian and Ethnographic Arma and Armour specialist. I see that he was at Nizwa this week giving a presentation on The Said Bin Sultan Sword. (The owner ruled in Oman from 1804 to 1866 and one of his wives, the infamous Sheherazad , designed the Royal Bussaidi Hilt to a Khanjar and Sword and the Royal Turban).

In addition, however, I have crosslinked this sword through the Funoon as the traditional Omani Battle Sword. No one else has done this. This is the ancient Sayf wa Terrs from the earliest period in Ibathi history when they were fighting the Abasiid here. I have compared its design in 12 separate ways with the Abassiid weapon at the Topkapi museum and shown proof that this was a slash and chop weapon for fast work behind and with the buckler shield. (No other sword researcher has attempted this). see reference http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 post

One of the great clues which inspired me was the introduction in Islamic Arms and Armour by the late Antony North where he describes the effect of weapons freeze in Islamic lands. That sword froze from then til now! Even today it is being Iconized and worn by VIPs etc.

Para 6. The flatish cylindrical hilt seen on curved Omani Kattara is indeed the weapon chosen by Merchants and Slave traders. When did the cylindrical flatish hilt appear and apparently it appeared on the dancing sword ~ did this switch happen at the same time? What is the date of the appearance of the long flat cylinder hilt? As a provisional date I have scribbled in 1744 since I think the dancing sword appeared about then as an Al Bussaidi sword of dance in respect of the forefathers...the users of the old sword(sayf Yamaani). Then I assume it jumped from the dancer to the long curved heavy backbladed Kattara... for Vips; Royalty Merchants and Slavetraders..

Para 7. The Dancing straight Omani Sayf... (Whats in a name?...Its a Sayf) Not Kattara... Kattara aren't flexible. Sayfs are.

Para 8. I agree. Many swords get rehilted and more so for the tourist market. My Saudi hilted German bladed Ethiopian sword was fitted together in Muscat. The same has happened in Sanaa... It's part of the game.

Para 9. I don't know ... Personally if someone is referring to a blade they can use the proper description or add the details. They can call it a Sayf... and add the details but using the name Kattara which is a non Arab word that no one knows either what it means and it only arrived late on the scene... I suggest ought only be used for curved variants. Its not that vital so long as the information is clear. I think we will be living with the anomaly for a while ...ha !

" The Straights the Sayf The Curved is The Kattara..."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[SwedeGreen]

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

FYI Johnny, Fort Antiques and Ibrahiim are one and the same.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

Salaams Johnny, As pointed out by Khanjar 1 ...I am indeed fortantiques.net and in large part the website is my own take on Omani Weapons... especially Swords and Khanjars. The huge thread on Kattara for comments http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 is a mega discussion on the broad subject of Omani fighting swords and dancing swords. In it there are references and photos of a lot of styles including the Saudia/Yemeni variant which is the central topic on this thread. I encourage anyone studying the subject to at least scan through that thread as it is full of facts and interesting twists.

Notwithstanding how the international community calls the swords the correct name for any straight sword in Oman is Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved swords are called Kattara. Kattara (not an Arabic word) is a relatively modern term perhaps instigated around 1744 at the inception of the Al Bussaidi Dynasty. It also fits the time-frame for the cross pollination of the long Omani hilt from/of the Omani dancing sword...

The Straight long flexible two edged razor sharp (new style) Omani Sayf not to be confused with the Omani Battle Sayf or Sayf Yamaani which goes back in style to the battles after 751 AD to rid Oman of the Abassiids(from Iraq) garrisoned here in Buraimi and other Omani centres to persecute Omanis who had formed a breakaway Ibaathi Muslim Sect. I will put up photographs to illustrate each sword and briefly its history later.

On top of these types there are some other curved Kattara including the Shamshir (no one calls them shamshiirs ~ they call them kattara~ because they are curved) Then there are the heavy backbladed slave trader swords..mighty things with the Omani long hilt from the dancing sword style...they are curved and so they are called Kattara. Occasionally there is a short ships weapon really simply an adaption of the Yemeni adaption of the Zanzibari Nimcha though here one has to be careful as there are lots of types as seen at Butin. The very aristocratic gold inlaid Zanzibari style was certainly an Omani style for Political heads of state, VIPs and merchants... after all Oman ejected the Portuguese from Muscat in 1650 and pursued them down the coast and did the same to them in Zanzibar... Oman owned Zanzibar for many years.

What tends to get confusing is that the generic term used for all swords is Sayf !!

It is important to grasp the vital difference between the Omani Battle Sword and the more recent dancing sword which pays homage to the old sword and the ancestors that wielded it...which has confused several learned visitors over the last 3 centuries tricking them into believing that the razor sharp flexible dancing sayf was a weapon when in fact it never saw a battle because it is and never has been a weapon..Its a dancing sword only; however, it looks battle worthy and if someone had mind to swipe with it; it would certainly work ! It could take off an arm. However it was and is only for dancing (plus it has a mock fight dance contest) and causes extreme mirth when you ask local people about its use as a fighting weapon...

Omani Battle Sword (sayf Yamaani) circa 751 ad> Dancing Sayf.circa 1744 ad

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.