Electrolytic rust removal - please add your experiences!

RobT · 6th September 2005, 03:08 AM

kai,
Thanks for info and the link to the site. I bought a battery charger today and, at this writing have an African arm dagger bubbling away in a solution of water and epsom salts (magnesium sulfate USP). I didn't have any washing soda (sodium carbonate) but I figured for the purposes of conductivity that a salt is a salt is a salt. Judging from the rust scum floating on the surface of the solution, the process is working. this evening I will remove the dagger from the solution and give it a quick scrub down with an abrasive pad to see how much rust five hours in the bath will remove. I took "before" pictures of the blade. It looks as if it was stored in a New England boat house for a few winters. It is rust city. When I first picked up the piece in the dealer's booth, it was rusted shut in the scabbard. When I finally managed to work it free, the dealer took one look at the blade and gave it to me for free. At one time this was a good quality piece so hopefully I can restore it to some semblance of its former condition. I don't think I can do much to degrade it further.
Sincerely,
RobT

kai · 6th September 2005, 02:15 PM

Hi Rob,

You're welcome!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

I bought a battery charger today and, at this writing have an African arm dagger bubbling away in a solution of water and epsom salts (magnesium sulfate USP). I didn't have any washing soda (sodium carbonate) but I figured for the purposes of conductivity that a salt is a salt is a salt.

Well, baking soda works just as well. Be careful with using any other salts since there may be unexpected side effects (including development of poisonous gases). Epsom may be fine but still it might speed up new rust after the power has been turned off. Whatever salt is used, it is really paramount to immediately apply some rust prevention anyway - right after srubbing and thoroughly drying the blade!

Quote:

I took "before" pictures of the blade. It looks as if it was stored in a New England boat house for a few winters.

Let them come!

Quote:

At one time this was a good quality piece so hopefully I can restore it to some semblance of its former condition.

I'm sure the blade will be ok (i.e. better than before

). Let's hope that there's not too much pitting though.

Regards,
Kai

RobT · 7th September 2005, 03:23 AM

kai,
Five hours in the electrolyte solution removed all red rust from the blade. This is pretty remarkable considering that the entire blade surface was colored various shades of red. Although there are patches of bare grey steel, most of the blade is covered with black oxide (magnetite Fe3 O4 ?). This is proving very difficult to remove, especially since the blade is severely pitted. I don't know if another stint in the electrolyte bath would help. Any suggestions? (The methods given in the article aren't suitable for blades.) On a positive note, I have seen no fresh signs of rusting. In any event, I intend to work on the blade a bit more before posting before and after pictures.
Sincerely,
RobT

Ann Feuerbach · 8th September 2005, 03:41 PM

From an archaeological conservators point of view...electrolitic reduction was tried alot in the 1980s (I think that was the decade). It was discarded as you loose alot of technological information, thus reducing the authenticity of the piece. Try a conservation site for more information. Do a search using ww.Dogpile.com and I think it is the AIC site that has journals you can look up online. Basically, while it might work, it is should not be recommended.

Ann Feuerbach · 8th September 2005, 03:43 PM

For a more positive suggestion, air abrasion is the preferred method these days.

RobT · 14th September 2005, 03:06 AM

Hi All,
I put the experimental blade in the electrolyte bath for a second time and left it overnight. (This before Ann's warning.) No sound metal appears to have been removed but frankly, the blade is in such sad shape that it's hard for me to tell. When I post the before and after pictures this weekend perhaps other forum members can point out things that I have missed. My thanks to Ann for the warning. I will certainly look up the recommended web sites for further information. By the way, what is this air abrasion? A kinder, gentler sandblasting perhaps? Is there a website that gives a detailed description of this method and the necessary equipment?
Sincerely,
RobT

Ann Feuerbach · 15th September 2005, 03:59 PM

Yeah, basically sandblasting with glass pellets (I forgot at this second what they are technically called) micro beads?

kai · 20th September 2005, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Although there are patches of bare grey steel, most of the blade is covered with black oxide (magnetite Fe3 O4 ?). This is proving very difficult to remove, especially since the blade is severely pitted.

Thanks for your updates, Rob!

I'm not sure I'd want to remove all of this patina.

If you're desperate enough, you could try etching with fruit acids (e. g. lemon juice) which tends to remove magnetite also (but will also etch the blade, i. e. make it rougher. It also works in pitted areas but don't expect wonders - keep brushing the blade from time to time to remove losened sludge. Fruit acids will also darken the blade and, thus, may make pitted areas less noticeable.

Regards,
Kai

RobT · 22nd September 2005, 04:22 AM

Hi All,
Thanks to you all for your informative responses. With Ian's caution about possible lung damage due to abrasive dust inhalation firmly in mind I intend to build a blasting box and get a compressor. Does anyone know what size of compressor (tank size and flow rate) that I would need? Money is an important consideration as is portability since I would like to use the unit around the house. Also, does anyone know what kind of attachments (like nozzles and abrasive canisters) I will need? I intend to check out the Black Beauty abrasive that Ian mentioned. Perhaps that company can provide some information also.
Ann, I very much look forward to your analysis of the differing needs for restoration and conservation. Thanks too for your compliment on my blades.
Kai, thanks for starting this ball rolling. Regarding your last post on this thread however, I must say that, unless the entire blade is uniformly black, the pits will show up loud and clear. I know this because I just spent about two years polishing the staining out of a wootz Kurdish Jambiya. (It was ok once but I'll never do it again. Life is too short.) The pitting and metal loss to this blade was severe but when the blade was polished mirror bright prior to etching, the pitting didn't look half as bad as when the blade was stained. Now that the etching is done the blade looks fairly respectable. This is why I'm so eager to pursue non-damaging methods to clean blades quickly and effectively.
Sincerely,
RobT

kai · 22nd September 2005, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

With Ian's caution about possible lung damage due to abrasive dust inhalation firmly in mind I intend to build a blasting box and get a compressor.

To those who are still unconvinced: Please do yourself a favor and google for silicosis! BTW, there's a host of severe health hazards associated with just about any sort of fine particles (i. e. "dust") - which also includes wood working!

[/QUOTE] unless the entire blade is uniformly black, the pits will show up loud and clear. I know this because I just spent about two years polishing the staining out of a wootz Kurdish Jambiya. ... The pitting and metal loss to this blade was severe but when the blade was polished mirror bright prior to etching, the pitting didn't look half as bad as when the blade was stained.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, pitting really is a nasty damage which tends to spoil the looks of a blade no matter what. That's why sellers usually don't touch rust encrustations - restoration tends to be a long, long uphill battle...

Rob, do you have before/after pics of that jambiya?

One possibility would be to protect the pit(tings?) with wax/etc. and only stain the smooth blade surface. That still will make the pitted areas more noticeable than in mirror polish: However, IMVHO some blades just look "wrong" if not stained properly...

Regards,
Kai

6th September 2005, 03:08 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	experiment begun kai, Thanks for info and the link to the site. I bought a battery charger today and, at this writing have an African arm dagger bubbling away in a solution of water and epsom salts (magnesium sulfate USP). I didn't have any washing soda (sodium carbonate) but I figured for the purposes of conductivity that a salt is a salt is a salt. Judging from the rust scum floating on the surface of the solution, the process is working. this evening I will remove the dagger from the solution and give it a quick scrub down with an abrasive pad to see how much rust five hours in the bath will remove. I took "before" pictures of the blade. It looks as if it was stored in a New England boat house for a few winters. It is rust city. When I first picked up the piece in the dealer's booth, it was rusted shut in the scabbard. When I finally managed to work it free, the dealer took one look at the blade and gave it to me for free. At one time this was a good quality piece so hopefully I can restore it to some semblance of its former condition. I don't think I can do much to degrade it further. Sincerely, RobT

7th September 2005, 03:23 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	First Progress Report kai, Five hours in the electrolyte solution removed all red rust from the blade. This is pretty remarkable considering that the entire blade surface was colored various shades of red. Although there are patches of bare grey steel, most of the blade is covered with black oxide (magnetite Fe3 O4 ?). This is proving very difficult to remove, especially since the blade is severely pitted. I don't know if another stint in the electrolyte bath would help. Any suggestions? (The methods given in the article aren't suitable for blades.) On a positive note, I have seen no fresh signs of rusting. In any event, I intend to work on the blade a bit more before posting before and after pictures. Sincerely, RobT

14th September 2005, 03:06 AM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Pictures to come this weekend Hi All, I put the experimental blade in the electrolyte bath for a second time and left it overnight. (This before Ann's warning.) No sound metal appears to have been removed but frankly, the blade is in such sad shape that it's hard for me to tell. When I post the before and after pictures this weekend perhaps other forum members can point out things that I have missed. My thanks to Ann for the warning. I will certainly look up the recommended web sites for further information. By the way, what is this air abrasion? A kinder, gentler sandblasting perhaps? Is there a website that gives a detailed description of this method and the necessary equipment? Sincerely, RobT

22nd September 2005, 04:22 AM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Next, the compressor Hi All, Thanks to you all for your informative responses. With Ian's caution about possible lung damage due to abrasive dust inhalation firmly in mind I intend to build a blasting box and get a compressor. Does anyone know what size of compressor (tank size and flow rate) that I would need? Money is an important consideration as is portability since I would like to use the unit around the house. Also, does anyone know what kind of attachments (like nozzles and abrasive canisters) I will need? I intend to check out the Black Beauty abrasive that Ian mentioned. Perhaps that company can provide some information also. Ann, I very much look forward to your analysis of the differing needs for restoration and conservation. Thanks too for your compliment on my blades. Kai, thanks for starting this ball rolling. Regarding your last post on this thread however, I must say that, unless the entire blade is uniformly black, the pits will show up loud and clear. I know this because I just spent about two years polishing the staining out of a wootz Kurdish Jambiya. (It was ok once but I'll never do it again. Life is too short.) The pitting and metal loss to this blade was severe but when the blade was polished mirror bright prior to etching, the pitting didn't look half as bad as when the blade was stained. Now that the etching is done the blade looks fairly respectable. This is why I'm so eager to pursue non-damaging methods to clean blades quickly and effectively. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 22nd September 2005 at 04:25 AM. Reason: typo

8th September 2005, 03:41 PM	#4
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	From an archaeological conservators point of view...electrolitic reduction was tried alot in the 1980s (I think that was the decade). It was discarded as you loose alot of technological information, thus reducing the authenticity of the piece. Try a conservation site for more information. Do a search using ww.Dogpile.com and I think it is the AIC site that has journals you can look up online. Basically, while it might work, it is should not be recommended.

8th September 2005, 03:43 PM	#5
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	For a more positive suggestion, air abrasion is the preferred method these days.

15th September 2005, 03:59 PM	#7
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Yeah, basically sandblasting with glass pellets (I forgot at this second what they are technically called) micro beads?