My first kaskara

Lew · 24th June 2012, 08:17 PM

A beautiful and rare example

.

Congrats

Lew

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2012, 09:23 PM

Hi Paulo,
I heartily concur with all the observations on what a fine piece this is, and cannot resist adding some notes beyond those well deserved accolades.

I am glad to see Ed add his notes here as in my opinion his field work in 1984 is likely the most relevant and powerfully detailed work on the intricacies of the kaskara since Graham Reed's work (1987). It is ironic that Ed's work actually was done prior to Reed's published work and the two now joined are outstanding resources for further study of these swords.

As Ed has noted, the five fullered blade is significant among the Sudanese blades, and while this one clearly has superior quality I cannot see why it would be European unless there is evidence of a ricasso as Chris has noted.The bladesmiths in Kassala were remarkably skilled and the more commonly seen triple or deep central fullered blades based on European imports were also well made there. I believe both of those types were based on Solingen imports as often discussed on these pages. I think the five channel types may have been based on Italian type blades which were of course likely brought into these regions due in part to Italian presence in these regions from the latter 19th century. The presence of Italian blades and weapons influence in North Africa has often been an influential denominator in thier weapons far into antiquity which should be recalled beyond the more recent here.

As Ed has noted, that this kaskara turned up in Italy is not surprising as the Italian occupation in Sudanese regions in the 1940s was during the rekindling of the swordmaking industry in Kassala at that time.

Turning to the perceived numeric '2' on the scabbard, I know also that this has come up before and I cannot recall the outcome of the notations or when they occurred. In my opinion this is of course not at all the numeral two, but I think there is a dot with what appears to me the second letter in the Arabic alphabet, 'khaa' . What is unclear is that it appears twice and singularly, as if used symbolically. I can only speculate that it is intended in some talismanic parlance as the application with many of the symbols used on these swords. Many of the European makers marks were transliterated into talismanically or superstituously charged meanings as well explained by Ed from his interviews with various informants. I would emphasize that anyone with serious interest in learning about Sudanese swords absolutely must read his outstanding paper.

While I very much look forward to entries from others regarding the meaning of the apparantly Arabic character on the scabbard, I consider that in certain occultism associated with the Sufi followings there are talismanic properties often aligned with these alphabetic characters. Without deeper understanding of the complex nature of these beliefs I cannot elaborate further but simply note that with the profound presence of the Sufi order in these regions, perhaps this solution might be viable.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2012, 03:17 AM

In looking through search found these posted by Stephen Wood back in 2009. Apparantly these marks which resemble the numeral 2 appear on another Kasallawi kaskara scabbard, and Stephen also suggested the haa' letter , but Dom did not agree. Also another embossed marking on a crocodile hide scabbard which resembled Arabic character or letter, which Dom described as unreadable.
It is interesting that these remarkably similar to Arabic letters marks are apparantly placed on some scabbards and in the case of the '2' (?) in the same configuration. There was no resolution three years ago, perhaps readers or anyone with more information?

A.alnakkas · 25th June 2012, 03:59 AM

Very beautiful Kaskara big congratulations! :-)

Interesting, Jim. I always read that as '2' but it could be the Arabic 'ha ح' which is not far fetched as the letter ha is frequent in the Qur'an as part of the letters which many surah's begin with like " ha mim" etc

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Very beautiful Kaskara big congratulations! :-)

Interesting, Jim. I always read that as '2' but it could be the Arabic 'ha ح' which is not far fetched as the letter ha is frequent in the Qur'an as part of the letters which many surah's begin with like " ha mim" etc

Thank you Lofty. Why would the 'ha' be placed in singulars in a paired configuration though. While it is as you note part of the cursive script in the wording, what kind of meaning would it have standing alone?
I think you mean the Letter on the embossed crocodile scabbard is the one representing Allah, correct?

I agree Iain, but I could not see the ricasso or whats left of it, and with that this could very well be a European blade. Perhaps again this may have been of the 'blank' sort we have discussed among trade blades. I am interested in knowing more on how fullers were installed after the blade was already in a forged state.

All the best,
Jim

paolo · 25th June 2012, 06:27 PM

Thank You all for the inputs.
The blade has a ricasso, the first 12,5 cm. on both side are without edge.

Ed, thank You for the valuable notes about Italians in Kassala and about the anadorned hilts . Might I find a woolen tassel somewere ?

About the like number "2" sign, this rimind to me a kind of Caucasian carpet called SILEH (pic attached)
Regards
Paolo

David R · 25th June 2012, 11:09 PM

A beautiful sword, and a very fine piece to have. Congratulations.

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2012, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paolo

Thank You all for the inputs.
The blade has a ricasso, the first 12,5 cm. on both side are without edge.

Ed, thank You for the valuable notes about Italians in Kassala and about the anadorned hilts . Might I find a woolen tassel somewere ?

About the like number "2" sign, this rimind to me a kind of Caucasian carpet called SILEH (pic attached)
Regards
Paolo

Great observation Paulo! This is a perfect reminder of the importance of the motif in rugs and other material culture in identifying some of the designs and motif found in weapons decoration. While many designs are found in the motif, there are often structural features and elements relating to architectural designs as well.
These Caucasian rugs as I understand are actually thought to be abstract images of a dragon, and while I dont think pertain to this particular example the comparison is very well noted.

A.alnakkas · 26th June 2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Lofty. Why would the 'ha' be placed in singulars in a paired configuration though. While it is as you note part of the cursive script in the wording, what kind of meaning would it have standing alone?
I think you mean the Letter on the embossed crocodile scabbard is the one representing Allah, correct?

Hey Jim, Yes, the one with Allah is the crocodile scabbard.

As for the letter ح ha then I cannot be sure quite frankly because it could be something else. Reason why I mentioned the Muqatta'at is because I know they have more significance in Sufism. The Muqatta'at purpose is a field of research in Quranic exegesis and am not familiar with any satisfactory answer nor do I have access to any sufi interpretation. Perhaps a field to begin searching in is the sufi sects of Sudan?

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2012, 02:29 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim, and you bring up a very valid point which I had not thought of, the Italian blades associated with schiavona. In considering what sort of European blade this may have been, or modelled after I had forgotten the Italian element. Actually my focus has typically been toward the blades from Solingen which characteristically have dominated the trade blade imports into North Africa, in this case the Sudan.
With Iain and Chris' observations on the ricasso presence it seems likely this could be one of these Italian blades, however Ed's note that the blade may have had the channels added seems plausible as well. Im not too sure from a metallurgy aspect how that is done, but surely it can be.
It should be remembered that the schiavona remained in use far beyond the 17th and 18th century periods to which they are typically assigned. As a traditional weapon they were still being produced or refurbished well into the 19th century.

I agree the dress of this kaskara is very much of the Kasallawi style and probably mounted near the 1940s as suggested. The lozenge pattern and the floral style crosses are favored motif designs typically represented in the silverwork on these hilts. Many of these designs occur in the leatherwork on scabbards and especially the leather straps.

The Sufi presence was well established throughout North Africa and in the Sudan, if I recall correctly especially with the Senussi, who were in Darfur regions and certainly widespread beyond that. Its been some time since I have studied these aspects along with Ali Dinar in Darfur but I do recall the Sufi being a key element in much of this history. It would be interesting to discover more on how the 'ha' letter is used talismanically, and it is well established that this aspect is an important element of Sufi following.

These are the wonders of ethnographic weapons and the things they tell us when investigated and observed forensically, it becomes quite literally an adventure in history with the weapon in focus your guide. It is the part of historic weapons that far exceeds just collecting them, and gratefully there are so many here who share in these interests and in preserving the important history these weapons give us.

Thank you for your always motivating participation and input!

All the best,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 25th June 2012, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In looking through search found these posted by Stephen Wood back in 2009. Apparantly these marks which resemble the numeral 2 appear on another Kasallawi kaskara scabbard, and Stephen also suggested the haa' letter , but Dom did not agree. Also another embossed marking on a crocodile hide scabbard which resembled Arabic character or letter, which Dom described as unreadable.
It is interesting that these remarkably similar to Arabic letters marks are apparantly placed on some scabbards and in the case of the '2' (?) in the same configuration. There was no resolution three years ago, perhaps readers or anyone with more information?

Jim, this one says 'Allah'

Iain · 25th June 2012, 04:19 PM

Very nice kaskara. My opinion, because of the ricasso, leans towards trade blade, possibly with locally added fullers as Ed speculated.

I would also guess a later dating on the hilt since the cross guard doesn't seem to be of the older, more flared variety like this one? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13142

In any case a great piece.

24th June 2012, 09:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Paulo, I heartily concur with all the observations on what a fine piece this is, and cannot resist adding some notes beyond those well deserved accolades. I am glad to see Ed add his notes here as in my opinion his field work in 1984 is likely the most relevant and powerfully detailed work on the intricacies of the kaskara since Graham Reed's work (1987). It is ironic that Ed's work actually was done prior to Reed's published work and the two now joined are outstanding resources for further study of these swords. As Ed has noted, the five fullered blade is significant among the Sudanese blades, and while this one clearly has superior quality I cannot see why it would be European unless there is evidence of a ricasso as Chris has noted.The bladesmiths in Kassala were remarkably skilled and the more commonly seen triple or deep central fullered blades based on European imports were also well made there. I believe both of those types were based on Solingen imports as often discussed on these pages. I think the five channel types may have been based on Italian type blades which were of course likely brought into these regions due in part to Italian presence in these regions from the latter 19th century. The presence of Italian blades and weapons influence in North Africa has often been an influential denominator in thier weapons far into antiquity which should be recalled beyond the more recent here. As Ed has noted, that this kaskara turned up in Italy is not surprising as the Italian occupation in Sudanese regions in the 1940s was during the rekindling of the swordmaking industry in Kassala at that time. Turning to the perceived numeric '2' on the scabbard, I know also that this has come up before and I cannot recall the outcome of the notations or when they occurred. In my opinion this is of course not at all the numeral two, but I think there is a dot with what appears to me the second letter in the Arabic alphabet, 'khaa' . What is unclear is that it appears twice and singularly, as if used symbolically. I can only speculate that it is intended in some talismanic parlance as the application with many of the symbols used on these swords. Many of the European makers marks were transliterated into talismanically or superstituously charged meanings as well explained by Ed from his interviews with various informants. I would emphasize that anyone with serious interest in learning about Sudanese swords absolutely must read his outstanding paper. While I very much look forward to entries from others regarding the meaning of the apparantly Arabic character on the scabbard, I consider that in certain occultism associated with the Sufi followings there are talismanic properties often aligned with these alphabetic characters. Without deeper understanding of the complex nature of these beliefs I cannot elaborate further but simply note that with the profound presence of the Sufi order in these regions, perhaps this solution might be viable. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th June 2012 at 02:49 AM.

25th June 2012, 03:17 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	In looking through search found these posted by Stephen Wood back in 2009. Apparantly these marks which resemble the numeral 2 appear on another Kasallawi kaskara scabbard, and Stephen also suggested the haa' letter , but Dom did not agree. Also another embossed marking on a crocodile hide scabbard which resembled Arabic character or letter, which Dom described as unreadable. It is interesting that these remarkably similar to Arabic letters marks are apparantly placed on some scabbards and in the case of the '2' (?) in the same configuration. There was no resolution three years ago, perhaps readers or anyone with more information? Attached Images

25th June 2012, 06:27 PM	#6
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Thank You all for the inputs. The blade has a ricasso, the first 12,5 cm. on both side are without edge. Ed, thank You for the valuable notes about Italians in Kassala and about the anadorned hilts . Might I find a woolen tassel somewere ? About the like number "2" sign, this rimind to me a kind of Caucasian carpet called SILEH (pic attached) Regards Paolo Attached Images

24th June 2012, 08:17 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A beautiful and rare example . Congrats Lew

25th June 2012, 03:59 AM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Very beautiful Kaskara big congratulations! :-) Interesting, Jim. I always read that as '2' but it could be the Arabic 'ha ح' which is not far fetched as the letter ha is frequent in the Qur'an as part of the letters which many surah's begin with like " ha mim" etc

25th June 2012, 11:09 PM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,123	A beautiful sword, and a very fine piece to have. Congratulations.

26th June 2012, 02:29 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thank you Ibrahiim, and you bring up a very valid point which I had not thought of, the Italian blades associated with schiavona. In considering what sort of European blade this may have been, or modelled after I had forgotten the Italian element. Actually my focus has typically been toward the blades from Solingen which characteristically have dominated the trade blade imports into North Africa, in this case the Sudan. With Iain and Chris' observations on the ricasso presence it seems likely this could be one of these Italian blades, however Ed's note that the blade may have had the channels added seems plausible as well. Im not too sure from a metallurgy aspect how that is done, but surely it can be. It should be remembered that the schiavona remained in use far beyond the 17th and 18th century periods to which they are typically assigned. As a traditional weapon they were still being produced or refurbished well into the 19th century. I agree the dress of this kaskara is very much of the Kasallawi style and probably mounted near the 1940s as suggested. The lozenge pattern and the floral style crosses are favored motif designs typically represented in the silverwork on these hilts. Many of these designs occur in the leatherwork on scabbards and especially the leather straps. The Sufi presence was well established throughout North Africa and in the Sudan, if I recall correctly especially with the Senussi, who were in Darfur regions and certainly widespread beyond that. Its been some time since I have studied these aspects along with Ali Dinar in Darfur but I do recall the Sufi being a key element in much of this history. It would be interesting to discover more on how the 'ha' letter is used talismanically, and it is well established that this aspect is an important element of Sufi following. These are the wonders of ethnographic weapons and the things they tell us when investigated and observed forensically, it becomes quite literally an adventure in history with the weapon in focus your guide. It is the part of historic weapons that far exceeds just collecting them, and gratefully there are so many here who share in these interests and in preserving the important history these weapons give us. Thank you for your always motivating participation and input! All the best, Jim

25th June 2012, 04:19 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Very nice kaskara. My opinion, because of the ricasso, leans towards trade blade, possibly with locally added fullers as Ed speculated. I would also guess a later dating on the hilt since the cross guard doesn't seem to be of the older, more flared variety like this one? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13142 In any case a great piece.