Matchlock Pistol ?

Matchlock · 21st June 2012, 07:24 PM

This spirally rolled up spring used in some Japanese matchlocks is not recorded from any surviving 16th c. European, esp. German sample. On the other hand, it just seems a more refined evolution of the rolled up cord for spanning a wheellock, in a sketch by Leonardo da Vinci, ca. 1500-10 (first attachment).

Spiral springs of different device are known from one or two ca. 1550 wheellock arquebuses in the Real Armería. Madrid, though; they seem to be based on another drawing by da Vinci (second and third attachment).

m

fernando · 22nd June 2012, 06:31 PM

Sorry Michl, i am a bit lost with your comments

.
Do you mean to say that this XIX century pistol doesn't have a spiral (helicoidal) main spring ?.
Note this is not my idea; i am just translating the book text. This pistol surely belong(ed) to the author's collection; he must have examined its interior.
... Or am i misunderstanding you ?

.

Matchlock · 22nd June 2012, 09:19 PM

No problem, 'Nando,

I should have been more precise:

As far as I know some Japanese matchlocks are fitted with spiral springs and others with conventional leaf springs.

I did not know which sort of spring the one illustrated by you featured.

Now that I saw the description I know.

Best,
Michl

rickystl · 25th June 2012, 03:39 PM

Hello Michael !!! And Fernando!!!
I'm returning to this tread rather belatedly.
Michael: Thank you so much for your reply. This is what us collectors/shooters have always thought. But your explanation put things in exact perspective. On behalf of myself and others, THANK YOU!!

Also, the photos of that matchlock revolver and barrels was a big hit!

Fernando: Thanks for the photo. What I found most interesting when I dis-assembled my original Japanese matchlock long gun was that the entire gun was assembled with pins. Not a single screw on the gun. It was actually a clever way to assemble. The pins that held the barrel to the stock were bamboo!!

Another question for Michael: Most European mathlocks I've seen have the serpentine pointing towards the shooter. But some have the serpentine pointing forward toward the muzzle (like Japanese guns). In your opinion, is the forward pointing serpentine a later design change? Or just a different design? The question arouse in trying to determine when the forward serpentine started to evolve. Thanks for any help. Rick.

Matchlock · 25th June 2012, 05:21 PM

Hi Rick,

I am glad you found my contribution helpful, thanks.

As to the direction the serpentine moved: this is quite a demanding request but I will try and reply shortly within the given frame of this post.

In the earliest known illustration of a matchlock, Cod.vind. 3069, dated 1411, the serpentine - holding not a length of match but a piece of tinder!! - acts forward (top attachment).
It does likewise on the oldest known actually surviving completely preserved arquebus, ca. 1400-10, the spring-loaded serpentine and hook both working-time replacements of ca. 1430; in my collection (two photos attached).

It is only by the early 16th c. that we find the next-in-line illustrations in the Maximilian armory inventories, with serpentines for tinder depicted acting mostly backward, but in one instance also acting forward.

In the Marienkirche Reutlingen, Southern Germany, there is a sculpture of an arquebusier at the Holy Selpucher, 1513, the serpentine of his arquebus acting backward (2 photos).

In the Museum of the Fürstentum Lüneburg, Northern Germany, I photographed an altar piece of the Last Judgement, of ca. 1520, depicting a skeleton firing his tinderlock (!) arquebus with the serpentine acting forward (1 att.)

On tapestries on the Battle of Pavia, 1525, the tinderlock serpentines act forward, and from the 1530's to 40's we have instances of surviving arquebuses (four in the author's collection, attached) with matchlock serpentines acting in both directions, but mostly backward.

By the 1560's thru the early 18th c., the backward-acting matchlock has established itself as the standard military weapon while on special-purpose guns, e.g. target guns and muskets with combined matchlock and wheellock or combined snap- and lever-matchlock mechanisms, we still find serpentines acting towards the muzzle.

Please also check out my other threads on early tinder- and matchlocks!

Just a few:

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15668

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10029

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=oldest+handgun

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=oldest+handgun

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=oldest+handgun

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...+1540+harquebus

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...+1540+harquebus

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...andsknecht+1540

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...necht+harquebus

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...necht+harquebus

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...tchlock+muskets

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...tchlock+muskets

- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...tchlock+muskets

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 25th June 2012, 05:22 PM

Let's go on with the attachments:

- Battle of Pavia tapestries, 1525 (4 att.)

- four Landsknecht matchlock arquebuses, ca. 1525 (top) to 1540, the third from top dated 1539; author's colln. (1)

- woodcuts of Landsknecht arquebusiers, 1530's

- military matchlock muskets, Nuremberg, dated 1567 and 1568, Graz armory

m

Matchlock · 25th June 2012, 06:12 PM

And last not least:

- military matchlock and wheellock muskets, ca. 1570-1720 in chronological order from left to right, author's colln.

- a matchlock chronology from ca. 1520-1720, all author's colln.

- the earliest known surviving complete snap-tinderlock mechanism with lateral push-button trigger (!), comprising all mechanical parts on a lock plate, ca. 1510, the measurements in cm; autor's colln.

- the latter, together with two detached matchlock mechanisms of ca. 1620 and 1650, retaining all of their original bluing! (author's colln.)

Enjoy, and do check out my other threads on matchlock-related topics!
You will be surprised, I promise!

21st June 2012, 07:24 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	This spirally rolled up spring used in some Japanese matchlocks is not recorded from any surviving 16th c. European, esp. German sample. On the other hand, it just seems a more refined evolution of the rolled up cord for spanning a wheellock, in a sketch by Leonardo da Vinci, ca. 1500-10 (first attachment). Spiral springs of different device are known from one or two ca. 1550 wheellock arquebuses in the Real Armería. Madrid, though; they seem to be based on another drawing by da Vinci (second and third attachment). m Attached Images

22nd June 2012, 06:31 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry Michl, i am a bit lost with your comments . Do you mean to say that this XIX century pistol doesn't have a spiral (helicoidal) main spring ?. Note this is not my idea; i am just translating the book text. This pistol surely belong(ed) to the author's collection; he must have examined its interior. ... Or am i misunderstanding you ? . Attached Images

22nd June 2012, 09:19 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	No problem, 'Nando, I should have been more precise: As far as I know some Japanese matchlocks are fitted with spiral springs and others with conventional leaf springs. I did not know which sort of spring the one illustrated by you featured. Now that I saw the description I know. Best, Michl Attached Images

25th June 2012, 05:21 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, I am glad you found my contribution helpful, thanks. As to the direction the serpentine moved: this is quite a demanding request but I will try and reply shortly within the given frame of this post. In the earliest known illustration of a matchlock, Cod.vind. 3069, dated 1411, the serpentine - holding not a length of match but a piece of tinder!! - acts forward (top attachment). It does likewise on the oldest known actually surviving completely preserved arquebus, ca. 1400-10, the spring-loaded serpentine and hook both working-time replacements of ca. 1430; in my collection (two photos attached). It is only by the early 16th c. that we find the next-in-line illustrations in the Maximilian armory inventories, with serpentines for tinder depicted acting mostly backward, but in one instance also acting forward. In the Marienkirche Reutlingen, Southern Germany, there is a sculpture of an arquebusier at the Holy Selpucher, 1513, the serpentine of his arquebus acting backward (2 photos). In the Museum of the Fürstentum Lüneburg, Northern Germany, I photographed an altar piece of the Last Judgement, of ca. 1520, depicting a skeleton firing his tinderlock (!) arquebus with the serpentine acting forward (1 att.) On tapestries on the Battle of Pavia, 1525, the tinderlock serpentines act forward, and from the 1530's to 40's we have instances of surviving arquebuses (four in the author's collection, attached) with matchlock serpentines acting in both directions, but mostly backward. By the 1560's thru the early 18th c., the backward-acting matchlock has established itself as the standard military weapon while on special-purpose guns, e.g. target guns and muskets with combined matchlock and wheellock or combined snap- and lever-matchlock mechanisms, we still find serpentines acting towards the muzzle. Please also check out my other threads on early tinder- and matchlocks! Just a few: - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15668 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10029 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=oldest+handgun - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=oldest+handgun - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=oldest+handgun - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...+1540+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...+1540+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...andsknecht+1540 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...necht+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...necht+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...tchlock+muskets - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...tchlock+muskets - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...tchlock+muskets Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 25th June 2012 at 08:02 PM.

25th June 2012, 05:22 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Let's go on with the attachments: - Battle of Pavia tapestries, 1525 (4 att.) - four Landsknecht matchlock arquebuses, ca. 1525 (top) to 1540, the third from top dated 1539; author's colln. (1) - woodcuts of Landsknecht arquebusiers, 1530's - military matchlock muskets, Nuremberg, dated 1567 and 1568, Graz armory m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 26th June 2012 at 12:09 AM.

25th June 2012, 03:39 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello Michael !!! And Fernando!!! I'm returning to this tread rather belatedly. Michael: Thank you so much for your reply. This is what us collectors/shooters have always thought. But your explanation put things in exact perspective. On behalf of myself and others, THANK YOU!! Also, the photos of that matchlock revolver and barrels was a big hit! Fernando: Thanks for the photo. What I found most interesting when I dis-assembled my original Japanese matchlock long gun was that the entire gun was assembled with pins. Not a single screw on the gun. It was actually a clever way to assemble. The pins that held the barrel to the stock were bamboo!! Another question for Michael: Most European mathlocks I've seen have the serpentine pointing towards the shooter. But some have the serpentine pointing forward toward the muzzle (like Japanese guns). In your opinion, is the forward pointing serpentine a later design change? Or just a different design? The question arouse in trying to determine when the forward serpentine started to evolve. Thanks for any help. Rick.

25th June 2012, 06:12 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And last not least: - military matchlock and wheellock muskets, ca. 1570-1720 in chronological order from left to right, author's colln. - a matchlock chronology from ca. 1520-1720, all author's colln. - the earliest known surviving complete snap-tinderlock mechanism with lateral push-button trigger (!), comprising all mechanical parts on a lock plate, ca. 1510, the measurements in cm; autor's colln. - the latter, together with two detached matchlock mechanisms of ca. 1620 and 1650, retaining all of their original bluing! (author's colln.) Enjoy, and do check out my other threads on matchlock-related topics! You will be surprised, I promise! Just a few: - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15668 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10029 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...1540+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...1540+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ndsknecht+1540 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...echt+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...echt+harquebus - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chlock+muskets - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chlock+muskets - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chlock+muskets m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 25th June 2012 at 07:03 PM.