Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th May 2012, 10:53 PM   #1
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Question Sabre ?

This is a big one .
Scabbard is metal, no real Maker's marks, no wood liner; just a funny looking number ? on each side of the blade at the forte; one looks kind of like a 2 and the other like a 6 .
Wood carved handle with leather and wire .

Any ideas at all ??
Attached Images
    

Last edited by Rick : 25th May 2012 at 11:08 PM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 12:58 AM   #2
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,178
Default

Virginia Manufactory sabre type 2 (1803-20)
These were often shortened for Confederate use in Civil War.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 01:45 AM   #3
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Cool

Holy Cannolli !!
Mi Amigo paid $35.00 for it !

Can't wait to tell him .

These are rare, Jim ?

Just looked it up in Albaugh .
Great eye, Jim !!

Way to go .

Last edited by Rick : 26th May 2012 at 02:28 AM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 03:07 AM   #4
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,063
Default

$35.oo!!! Must be nice! Beaut of a sword. The slotted side guard reminds me of the American naval cutlass of the same period with slotting to side guard.

Ahhh, yes. Jim does have a very good eye!
Mark
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 03:44 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,178
Default

Thanks very much guys
I knew this one right off because back in my collecting days I really wanted one, always thought they were pretty nice and loved the parabolic blade.
There was a great book, "The Virginia Manufactory of Arms" by Giles Cromwell as I recall, its been quite a few years.
These are pretty scarce, woth pretty good $$ though I think some repros out there....Stuart Mobray, the editor of "Man at Arms" magazine is the guy to talk to.....he likes these and Starr sabres.
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 04:25 AM   #6
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Default

Well, I was wondering about repro, actually .

The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? .

One hell of a distressing job if it is a repro; layers of rust .

The blade has great flex ....
[edit] If this sword is the real thing it was made between 1806 and 1808 .


Jim, this sword is huge; you need a quarter acre just to swing it . LOLZ !

Last edited by Rick : 26th May 2012 at 05:21 AM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 03:59 PM   #7
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Fab sword, love the shape. What a curve!!
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 01:05 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,178
Default

Agree this thing is impressive, and when these were made swords were still very much primary weapons.....when these were called out again during the Civil War it seems they were shortened down. In my opinion this sword looks right, the rust on the hilt seems more recent, and the blade pretty clean, but the leather worn through on grip looks official. Incredible to find these kinda deals these days.......like the old urban tale of a lady who had a 'Chevy' in a barn for 50 years or some such...turned out to be a '54 Corvette with nearly no miles on it!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 02:21 AM   #9
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Default

Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restrauteur .
I expect to be drinking free for a bit .
Jim, I will hoist one to you .

He was thrilled to hear the news; the piece would do well in the Summer Americana auction here at Eldred's, but he intends to keep it above the bar .

I advised him to do not much of anything to the sword except perhaps wax the blade .
First, do no harm ...

Just goes to show ... sometimes the pig in a poke works out .

" To err is human,
To arr is pirate."

Last edited by Rick : 27th May 2012 at 03:01 AM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 08:28 AM   #10
Multumesc
Member
 
Multumesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Romania
Posts: 129
Send a message via Yahoo to Multumesc
Default

Beautiful sword.
Multumesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 11:10 AM   #11
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 977
Default

Here's another lucky "Bustard".
Attached Images
 
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 07:23 PM   #12
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,178
Default

Good one Norman!!
Arr Rick!!! Getting closer to the pirate coast,
Mark, does grog come in a sixpack?
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 09:18 PM   #13
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,063
Default

That it does, Jim, that it does!!!

Lucky bustard!!! Too funny! $35...I still can't get over that one!

Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down?
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 09:43 PM   #14
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 4,612
Default

Just two things Rick ...
1 - This you can call a bargain, not other things ... if you know what i mean .
2 - You should tell the owner this sabre is crap, do him the favour to buy it for the 35 bucks he has spend and bring it to your collection ... or mine
All said .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 09:50 PM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 4,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Here's another lucky "Bustard".

Very nice joke ... from an imaginative Scot .
Pity you can't make this trick in my language.
But let me teach you: the term is "Abetarda" .
Learn until you die
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 10:19 PM   #16
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
That it does, Jim, that it does!!!

Lucky bustard!!! Too funny! $35...I still can't get over that one!

Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down?


You know, I would suggest that but I'm afraid he'll mess it up; which is why I didn't .

Maybe I will offer to do this; just to handle it again .

The scabbard seemed to have been japanned black from what remains of the finish . It is badly rusted .


" To err is human,
To arr is pirate."
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2012, 05:16 AM   #17
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,136
Default

VM Type 2 is it?

Well then, another entry on the "must-get" list

Lovely curve, brings to mind the more extreme gurade.
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2012, 05:15 PM   #18
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Smile

More than you ever wanted to know .

http://springfieldarsenal.files.wor...resentation.pdf
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2012, 02:12 AM   #19
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 522
Default

Nice!
It's a $3000 sword.
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2012, 03:28 PM   #20
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,063
Default

$35...$3000...not too much of a difference-
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2012, 03:54 PM   #21
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,178
Default

Thank you Rick for posting the Cromwell work on this !!! I had no idea it was online and was wishing I had my copy here in the bookmobile.

While I very much agree with the potential retail price range on the sword I deferred placing specific value here as we prefer not to discuss these in this venue. I would caution readers that the opinions on value expressed do not constitute an appraisal or valuation for use in any type transaction or legal matter.

I cannot resist saying again what a magnificent sabre this is, and would really like to see more discussion and hopefully more examples entered here!!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2012, 05:07 PM   #22
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Smile

Hi Jim, I'm glad you found that link useful .

I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2012, 05:12 PM   #23
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 522
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .


Indeed.
Most of the extant examples were Confederate-altered, some rescabarded. My estimate of $3000 is the low end. I wouldn't be surprised at an auction price of $5000 for this sword. It does, however, require a very careful conservation of the metal surfaces and the leather on the grip. It's something that I love to do. Conserving a sword in this state is sort of a zen experience.
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2012, 05:24 PM   #24
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
Indeed.
Most of the extant examples were Confederate-altered, some rescabarded. My estimate of $3000 is the low end. I wouldn't be surprised at an auction price of $5000 for this sword. It does, however, require a very careful conservation of the metal surfaces and the leather on the grip. It's something that I love to do. Conserving a sword in this state is sort of a zen experience.


This is exactly why I told the owner not to mess with it .
I would hesitate to mess with it myself .

Dmitry, I think the scabbard needs to visit a good autobody shop .
The area around the drag is pretty dicey .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2012, 05:38 PM   #25
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 4,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restaurateur .
I expect to be drinking free for a bit . ...

For a bit ? After hearing all this, even if he has a close fist, he will easy offer you a season pass .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2012, 06:16 PM   #26
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Talking

Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2012, 02:36 AM   #27
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 522
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
This is exactly why I told the owner not to mess with it .
I would hesitate to mess with it myself .

Dmitry, I think the scabbard needs to visit a good autobody shop .
The area around the drag is pretty dicey .


I think it needs to be "messed with". It appears to have been in a humid environment. At least a good smothering of BreakFree CLP all over [but not on the grip!!!]. I would leave the bottom portion of the scabbard alone. It shows natural wear from being banged and stepped on, and is now paper-thin. Iron this thin is very difficult to improve upon.
Just my $.02
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2012, 10:47 PM   #28
Andrew
Vikingsword Staff
 
Andrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? .


What is this about? Is it possible the edge was intentionally rebated at the time of manufacture?
Andrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2012, 11:57 PM   #29
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,929
Default

Good suggestion, Dmitry; I will pass it on to the owner .
Andrew, I have no idea why the blade is so dull .
Could it be 200+ years of being drawn and re-inserted in its scabbard ?

Guys, were these sabre scabbards saddle mounted ?
It is way too long to wear at the waist .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:20 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.