Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Sabre ? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15615)

Rick 25th May 2012 10:53 PM

Sabre ?
 
4 Attachment(s)
This is a big one .
Scabbard is metal, no real Maker's marks, no wood liner; just a funny looking number ? on each side of the blade at the forte; one looks kind of like a 2 and the other like a 6 .
Wood carved handle with leather and wire .

Any ideas at all ?? :confused: :shrug:

Jim McDougall 26th May 2012 12:58 AM

Virginia Manufactory sabre type 2 (1803-20)
These were often shortened for Confederate use in Civil War.

Rick 26th May 2012 01:45 AM

Holy Cannolli !!
Mi Amigo paid $35.00 for it !

Can't wait to tell him .

These are rare, Jim ?

Just looked it up in Albaugh .
Great eye, Jim !!

Way to go . :D

M ELEY 26th May 2012 03:07 AM

$35.oo!!! Must be nice! Beaut of a sword. The slotted side guard reminds me of the American naval cutlass of the same period with slotting to side guard.

Ahhh, yes. Jim does have a very good eye! ;) :D
Mark

Jim McDougall 26th May 2012 03:44 AM

Thanks very much guys :)
I knew this one right off because back in my collecting days I really wanted one, always thought they were pretty nice and loved the parabolic blade.
There was a great book, "The Virginia Manufactory of Arms" by Giles Cromwell as I recall, its been quite a few years.
These are pretty scarce, woth pretty good $$ though I think some repros out there....Stuart Mobray, the editor of "Man at Arms" magazine is the guy to talk to.....he likes these and Starr sabres.
Jim

Rick 26th May 2012 04:25 AM

Well, I was wondering about repro, actually .

The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? . :confused:

One hell of a distressing job if it is a repro; layers of rust . :shrug:

The blade has great flex .... :confused:
[edit] If this sword is the real thing it was made between 1806 and 1808 .


Jim, this sword is huge; you need a quarter acre just to swing it . LOLZ !

Atlantia 26th May 2012 03:59 PM

Fab sword, love the shape. What a curve!!

Jim McDougall 27th May 2012 01:05 AM

Agree this thing is impressive, and when these were made swords were still very much primary weapons.....when these were called out again during the Civil War it seems they were shortened down. In my opinion this sword looks right, the rust on the hilt seems more recent, and the blade pretty clean, but the leather worn through on grip looks official. Incredible to find these kinda deals these days.......like the old urban tale of a lady who had a 'Chevy' in a barn for 50 years or some such...turned out to be a '54 Corvette with nearly no miles on it!

Rick 27th May 2012 02:21 AM

Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restrauteur . :D
I expect to be drinking free for a bit . ;)
Jim, I will hoist one to you .

He was thrilled to hear the news; the piece would do well in the Summer Americana auction here at Eldred's, but he intends to keep it above the bar .

I advised him to do not much of anything to the sword except perhaps wax the blade .
First, do no harm ...

Just goes to show ... sometimes the pig in a poke works out . ;)

" To err is human,
To arr is pirate."

Multumesc 27th May 2012 08:28 AM

Beautiful sword. :)

Norman McCormick 27th May 2012 11:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's another lucky "Bustard". :p :D

Jim McDougall 27th May 2012 07:23 PM

Good one Norman:)!!
Arr Rick!!! Getting closer to the pirate coast,
Mark, does grog come in a sixpack?

M ELEY 27th May 2012 09:18 PM

That it does, Jim, that it does!!!

Lucky bustard!!! Too funny! :D $35...I still can't get over that one!

Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down? :shrug:

fernando 27th May 2012 09:43 PM

Just two things Rick ...
1 - This you can call a bargain, not other things ... if you know what i mean ;).
2 - You should tell the owner this sabre is crap, do him the favour to buy it for the 35 bucks he has spend and bring it to your collection ... or mine :eek:
All said :cool: .

fernando 27th May 2012 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Here's another lucky "Bustard". :p :D

Very nice joke ... from an imaginative Scot :D .
Pity you can't make this trick in my language.
But let me teach you: the term is "Abetarda" :cool: .
Learn until you die :shrug: :eek:

Rick 27th May 2012 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
That it does, Jim, that it does!!!

Lucky bustard!!! Too funny! :D $35...I still can't get over that one!

Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down? :shrug:


You know, I would suggest that but I'm afraid he'll mess it up; which is why I didn't .

Maybe I will offer to do this; just to handle it again . ;) :D

The scabbard seemed to have been japanned black from what remains of the finish . It is badly rusted .


" To err is human,
To arr is pirate." :D

Emanuel 28th May 2012 05:16 AM

VM Type 2 is it?

Well then, another entry on the "must-get" list :D

Lovely curve, brings to mind the more extreme gurade.

Rick 28th May 2012 05:15 PM

More than you ever wanted to know . ;)

http://springfieldarsenal.files.wor...resentation.pdf

Dmitry 29th May 2012 02:12 AM

Nice!
It's a $3000 sword.

M ELEY 29th May 2012 03:28 PM

$35...$3000...not too much of a difference- :eek: :cool:

Jim McDougall 29th May 2012 03:54 PM

Thank you Rick for posting the Cromwell work on this !!! I had no idea it was online and was wishing I had my copy here in the bookmobile.

While I very much agree with the potential retail price range on the sword I deferred placing specific value here as we prefer not to discuss these in this venue. I would caution readers that the opinions on value expressed do not constitute an appraisal or valuation for use in any type transaction or legal matter.

I cannot resist saying again what a magnificent sabre this is, and would really like to see more discussion and hopefully more examples entered here!!! :)

Rick 30th May 2012 05:07 PM

Hi Jim, I'm glad you found that link useful . :)

I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .

Dmitry 31st May 2012 05:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .


Indeed.
Most of the extant examples were Confederate-altered, some rescabarded. My estimate of $3000 is the low end. I wouldn't be surprised at an auction price of $5000 for this sword. It does, however, require a very careful conservation of the metal surfaces and the leather on the grip. It's something that I love to do. Conserving a sword in this state is sort of a zen experience.

Rick 31st May 2012 05:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
Indeed.
Most of the extant examples were Confederate-altered, some rescabarded. My estimate of $3000 is the low end. I wouldn't be surprised at an auction price of $5000 for this sword. It does, however, require a very careful conservation of the metal surfaces and the leather on the grip. It's something that I love to do. Conserving a sword in this state is sort of a zen experience.


This is exactly why I told the owner not to mess with it .
I would hesitate to mess with it myself .

Dmitry, I think the scabbard needs to visit a good autobody shop . ;)
The area around the drag is pretty dicey .

fernando 31st May 2012 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restaurateur . :D
I expect to be drinking free for a bit . ;) ...

For a bit ? After hearing all this, even if he has a close fist, he will easy offer you a season pass :cool: :eek: .

Rick 31st May 2012 06:16 PM

:D :D :D

Dmitry 3rd June 2012 02:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
This is exactly why I told the owner not to mess with it .
I would hesitate to mess with it myself .

Dmitry, I think the scabbard needs to visit a good autobody shop . ;)
The area around the drag is pretty dicey .


I think it needs to be "messed with". It appears to have been in a humid environment. At least a good smothering of BreakFree CLP all over [but not on the grip!!!]. I would leave the bottom portion of the scabbard alone. It shows natural wear from being banged and stepped on, and is now paper-thin. Iron this thin is very difficult to improve upon.
Just my $.02

Andrew 4th June 2012 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? . :confused:


What is this about? Is it possible the edge was intentionally rebated at the time of manufacture? :confused:

Rick 4th June 2012 11:57 PM

Good suggestion, Dmitry; I will pass it on to the owner .
Andrew, I have no idea why the blade is so dull . :confused:
Could it be 200+ years of being drawn and re-inserted in its scabbard ?

Guys, were these sabre scabbards saddle mounted ?
It is way too long to wear at the waist . :confused:


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