ID on dagger ?

delor · 8th January 2012, 06:12 PM

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

chregu · 8th January 2012, 07:10 PM

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

Gavin Nugent · 8th January 2012, 08:21 PM

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav

Dom · 9th January 2012, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Algeria?

Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance

and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom

ariel · 9th January 2012, 12:31 AM

Any connection?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14807

Gavin Nugent · 9th January 2012, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance

and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom

Yes but why

David · 9th January 2012, 05:02 AM

An absolutely baseless opinion, but i would look north of Africa.

Martin Lubojacky · 9th January 2012, 07:57 AM

I would say the shape of the blade and the style of the leather sheath and its loop are not "native-African". (I think if it was originated in Africa, then only as a relatively modern hunter´s accessories.)

Dom · 10th January 2012, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Yes but why

Hi my Friend

BECAUSE ....
my belief was acquired by the ability to review, 7 reference books,
dealing primarily Islamic edged weapons, books that are at home

however, the error is always possible,
that is why we must be cautious in our statements, at least in my case

my personal library concerning this subject
1) Arms & Armor (in English)
2) L'Art des Chevaliers en Pays d'Islam (in French)
3) Swords & Armor (in English)
4) les armes orientales (in French)
5) ABC des armes blanches (Islam) (in French)
6) les armes orientales (in French)
7) armes et armures (in French)

on top of all that, I spent 6 years in Algeria,
I ran Tunisia, as well as Morocco, and I never saw something like this dagger
the quality of the handle, of the scabbard, it's far better than what it's produced in Africa, and the decor (small circles) it's away of what is made in North Africa

HAVE I WELL ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR? Have I convinced ?

à +

Dom

Emanuel · 10th January 2012, 01:16 AM

Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...1&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...7&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel

Gavin Nugent · 9th November 2014, 11:45 PM

oops

Stan S. · 8th January 2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin.

I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?

Iain · 8th January 2012, 09:34 PM

Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate.

laEspadaAncha · 8th January 2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?

It recalls a certain faulty phrasebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYH0pBZdaes

hbhansen · 9th January 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

That's very interesting ! Theres no doubt in my mind, that these knifes is from the same region. Just a shame that the origin of the knife is lost

Nice knife, thanks for showing.

hbhansen · 9th January 2012, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

Hi Chregu
Does the size match ?
Best
Henrik

Gavin Nugent · 13th January 2012, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

The scabbard strap and clasp arrangement on Chregu's example is again, close to those seen on 20th century British khukri. Same kind of belt attachment.

Emanuel

Please provide an image

The same suspension arrangement is seen on the knife at the bottom post number 35

Also the Turkish knife of similar construction in post 16

I am sure countless other types of knife too....

Edit; Thanks for the update with images, certainly only one of the Kukri sheaths are suspended in this manner of the knife in question, the others are not....can't help but remember my sold item stock s117, it is frog suspended, not stictched to the body of the sheath....credits or asking permission to use copyright images would be appreciated....

Gav

delor · 14th January 2012, 08:00 AM

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

Gavin Nugent · 14th January 2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

My thoughts too Delor as this is the 4th of this style I have seen in the last few years...I know Bonhams listed one a while back too....

Gav

A.alnakkas · 14th January 2012, 12:28 PM

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

Gavin Nugent · 14th January 2012, 01:44 PM

North Africa is a big place;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa

thinreadline · 17th January 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

Yes . The decorative motifs seem to be remarkably much like the Afghani knife you have recently posted on the 'Choora' thread.

hbhansen · 16th January 2012, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

Gavin Nugent · 17th January 2012, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbhansen

When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

I don't think "tourist" is correct either. These are of a type, to me eye colonialist influenced solid utility knives...origins unknown

hbhansen · 9th January 2012, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

delor · 10th January 2012, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbhansen

Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

Thanks Henrik,
it confirms the handle is not walrus ivory. Probably elephant ivory as already stated.
The marks on ivory look Afghan or Balkan to me.
Regards,
Bernard

hbhansen · 10th January 2012, 07:16 PM

Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.

chregu · 11th January 2012, 04:58 PM

Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife

hbhansen · 11th January 2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife

Not much difference there...

Rick · 11th January 2012, 06:48 PM

I could swear that an example of the original poster's knife form has been through the opinion mill here before .

I just can't find it .

8th January 2012, 07:10 PM	#2
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife. The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from. short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike! The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference! Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin? Gruss Chregu Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 9th January 2012 at 11:41 AM.

10th January 2012, 01:16 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...1&page=2&pp=40 http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...7&postcount=42 The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian. Regards, Emanuel Attached Images

11th January 2012, 04:58 PM	#28
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	Thanks to everyone for their answers. here the length of my knife Attached Images

8th January 2012, 06:12 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade. The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect). Regards, Bernard

8th January 2012, 08:21 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria? Gav

9th January 2012, 12:31 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Any connection? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14807

9th January 2012, 05:02 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	An absolutely baseless opinion, but i would look north of Africa.

9th January 2012, 07:57 AM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	I would say the shape of the blade and the style of the leather sheath and its loop are not "native-African". (I think if it was originated in Africa, then only as a relatively modern hunter´s accessories.)

9th November 2014, 11:45 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	oops

8th January 2012, 09:34 PM	#13
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate.

14th January 2012, 08:00 AM	#18
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects. There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

14th January 2012, 12:28 PM	#20
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello All, I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell. I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

14th January 2012, 01:44 PM	#21
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	North Africa is a big place; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa

10th January 2012, 07:16 PM	#27
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.

11th January 2012, 06:48 PM	#30
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I could swear that an example of the original poster's knife form has been through the opinion mill here before . I just can't find it .