Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   ID on dagger ? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832)

hbhansen 4th January 2012 06:23 PM

ID on dagger ?
 
10 Attachment(s)
Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 8th January 2012 04:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhansen
Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik



Salaams Henrik,
This looks like a Scandanavian hunting knife... possibly Finland "Puuko." Maybe ivory tusk from Walrus or possibly Reindeer Antler?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

delor 8th January 2012 05:12 PM

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

chregu 8th January 2012 06:10 PM

3 Attachment(s)
hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

SwordsAntiqueWeapons 8th January 2012 07:21 PM

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav

Stan S. 8th January 2012 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin.



I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?
:rolleyes:

Iain 8th January 2012 08:34 PM

Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate. ;)

laEspadaAncha 8th January 2012 10:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan S.
I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?
:rolleyes:


It recalls a certain faulty phrasebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYH0pBZdaes

:)

Dom 8th January 2012 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Algeria?
Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance :shrug:
and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom

ariel 8th January 2012 11:31 PM

Any connection?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14807

SwordsAntiqueWeapons 9th January 2012 02:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance :shrug:
and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom


:) Yes but why ;)

David 9th January 2012 04:02 AM

An absolutely baseless opinion, but i would look north of Africa. :shrug:

Martin Lubojacky 9th January 2012 06:57 AM

I would say the shape of the blade and the style of the leather sheath and its loop are not "native-African". (I think if it was originated in Africa, then only as a relatively modern hunter´s accessories.)

chregu 9th January 2012 07:06 AM

hello guys
Yes, please grant me a translation program. Smile.
sorry did not notice the error.
Of course, the sheath is meant. smile
not African, my assessment would be more North Asia? The design reminds me of a Dha, how about China?
In any case I've seen too many of the same Knife, to declare it as individual pieces. they are always exactly the same design, also the knife sheaths!
Gruss Chregu

Martin Lubojacky 9th January 2012 09:09 AM

I would also guess north Asia, What about some of the nations from the north Siberia ?

SwordsAntiqueWeapons 9th January 2012 09:18 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Not limited to but;

Similar bolsters have been seen on Khodmi
The hilt is Elephant ivory
Similar markings on the ivory have also been seen on Khodmi
Similar method of seating the blade in the hilt has been seen on Khodmi despite having no binding.

Yes similar overall profile and circle markings have been seen on SEA knives too but they are not seen with hide coverings, usually better finished blades and timber sheaths bound with rattan or silver. Also they usually have collars, not bolsters.

Artzi has a couple of these attributed to several different regions, Afghanistan, Northwest India, and Pakistan...perhaps AJ or Lofty can chime in for this regions?

The closest I have owned to one was a mid 20th century Turkish hunting knife. The blade on it was named and the hilt was antler but similar blade and method of securing in the antler albeit longer rivet spacing....Turkey and North Africa have had a lot of interaction...could have been a contract fulfilled there much like some cutlers do in Pakistan these days...

Gav

ariel 9th January 2012 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky
I would also guess north Asia, What about some of the nations from the north Siberia ?


No, not likely. First, the use of elephant ivory, and second, Siberian tribal knives are orders of magnitude simpler and have no sophisticated designs on the blade.
I am still voting for North India and thereabouts.

SwordsAntiqueWeapons 9th January 2012 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
No, not likely. First, the use of elephant ivory, and second, Siberian tribal knives are orders of magnitude simpler and have no sophisticated designs on the blade.
I am still voting for North India and thereabouts.


The red and blacks are seen on Lohar along with the same symbols but then the symbols as discussed in these pages long ago are found in almost every region of the world....

chregu 9th January 2012 01:06 PM

the decoration on the handle, I do not come on. but which is on the blade is special.
the style it is a good working knife, but the attachment is unusual with the short part in the handle.
In the country of origin is no shortage of ivory.

hbhansen 9th January 2012 05:57 PM

Thank you guys !! For all your answers !
Looks like this is a tuff nut to crack :confused: But you have all given me some good input, that i can use in my search of the origin of this knife.
Best
Henrik

hbhansen 9th January 2012 06:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu


That's very interesting ! Theres no doubt in my mind, that these knifes is from the same region. Just a shame that the origin of the knife is lost :(
Nice knife, thanks for showing.

hbhansen 9th January 2012 06:07 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by delor
The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard


Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

hbhansen 9th January 2012 06:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu


Hi Chregu
Does the size match ?
Best
Henrik

Dom 9th January 2012 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
:) Yes but why ;)
Hi my Friend ;)
BECAUSE ....
my belief was acquired by the ability to review, 7 reference books,
dealing primarily Islamic edged weapons, books that are at home :p

however, the error is always possible,
that is why we must be cautious in our statements, at least in my case :D

my personal library concerning this subject
1) Arms & Armor (in English)
2) L'Art des Chevaliers en Pays d'Islam (in French)
3) Swords & Armor (in English)
4) les armes orientales (in French)
5) ABC des armes blanches (Islam) (in French)
6) les armes orientales (in French)
7) armes et armures (in French)

on top of all that, I spent 6 years in Algeria,
I ran Tunisia, as well as Morocco, and I never saw something like this dagger
the quality of the handle, of the scabbard, it's far better than what it's produced in Africa, and the decor (small circles) it's away of what is made in North Africa

HAVE I WELL ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR? Have I convinced ? :D

à +

Dom

Emanuel 10th January 2012 12:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...21&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....27&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel

SwordsAntiqueWeapons 10th January 2012 01:20 AM

More data
 
Here is a little more food for thought..... :D

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...ht=circle+motif

Not yet convinced of anything...still have not heard a fat lady singing :D

Gav

delor 10th January 2012 06:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhansen
Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik


Thanks Henrik,
it confirms the handle is not walrus ivory. Probably elephant ivory as already stated.
The marks on ivory look Afghan or Balkan to me.
Regards,
Bernard

hbhansen 10th January 2012 06:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...21&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....27&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel


Definitely from the same region !!

hbhansen 10th January 2012 06:16 PM

Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.

chregu 11th January 2012 03:58 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife


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