The 10th to 15th century Visayan kris, & earlier artifacts

migueldiaz · 21st May 2011, 02:50 PM

The other Filipino prehispanic blades have a more regular taper from the guard, to the point. The pic of the lone dagger is from 'nacho'.

migueldiaz · 22nd May 2011, 01:41 PM

From Laos/Cambodia/Thailand, we also see a similar blade profile. The pic below (and the ones to follow) are from the book, Images of the Gods: Khmer Mythology in Cambodia, Laos & Thailand.

migueldiaz · 22nd May 2011, 01:53 PM

To put the above blade in context, the other blade types that can be seen in those ancient [Thai/Laotian/Cambodian] temples are below. The longer blades, as well as the captions of the daggers shown, can be found in this album.

migueldiaz · 24th May 2011, 04:19 PM

Dr. Dizon was kind enough to see me the other day. Here's some of the things he mentioned to me:

[1] on the bent tip of the Visayan kris -- he said that it is a sign that the blade owner willed when he was alive that the blade will be buried with him; bending the tip was a gesture that the blade is not to be used anymore -- in effect, this is another sign to look for when one is assessing the authenticity of an alleged excavated blade; he said that this practice was also done in other regions

[given the practice of ancestral worship then, these desires of the old folks were surely followed to the letter; the success of harvests and business enterprises were believed then to be heavily dependent upon the benevolent intervention of the departed forefathers]

[2] the similarity of the Visayan kris with old Javanese kerises, etc., is not surprising because there were really no borders then amongst what is now Phils., Indo., & Malaysia

[3] he added that blacksmiths then were itinerant, and thus all the more that we should see similarity in designs

[4] as far as artifacts found in ship wrecks in the country are concerned, he said he has never seen a bladed weapon [except for the katanas in the San Diego wreck, 1600, near Batangas] -- his conclusion is that the bladed weapons of ancient Phils. were not imported; we made our own

[5] he has also never seen blade artifacts in the country that are wavy -- all are straight [thus we can tentatively conclude here that the wavy/naga blade is a relatively recent concept]

[6] rather than mining iron ore and then smelting them, it's always easier to recycle old iron or steel as less effort is required

[7] also, as steel gets recycled (and heated and pounded once more to get the slag [impurities] out), all the more that the quality of the steel gets better

[8] thus it was quite popular in the olden days to use "drift iron", i.e., metal coming from various sources and then recycled.

David · 24th May 2011, 06:20 PM

Again thanks Miguel for all the research. It seems to me that this dating from 10th-15th century is a bit wide. Have they been unable to refine this dating a bit given the artifacts found. I personally would find 10th C date unlikely, but could see 15th C date.

Spunjer · 25th May 2011, 02:30 AM

"Long Live! Year of Siyaka 822, month of Waisaka, according to astronomy. The fourth day of the waning moon, Monday. On this occasion, Lady Angkatan, and her brother whose name is Buka, the children of the Honourable Namwaran, were awarded a document of complete pardon from the Commander in Chief of Tundun, represented by the Lord Minister of Pailah, Jayadewa.

By this order, through the scribe, the Honourable Namwaran has been forgiven of all and is released from his debts and arrears of 1 katî and 8 suwarna before the Honourable Lord Minister of Puliran, Ka Sumuran by the authority of the Lord Minister of Pailah.

Because of his faithful service as a subject of the Chief, the Honourable and widely renowned Lord Minister of Binwangan recognized all the living relatives of Namwaran who were claimed by the Chief of Dewata, represented by the Chief of Medang.

Yes, therefore the living descendants of the Honourable Namwaran are forgiven, indeed, of any and all debts of the Honourable Namwaran to the Chief of Dewata.

This, in any case, shall declare to whomever henceforth that on some future day should there be a man who claims that no release from the debt of the Honourable... "

that's the translation of the small document pictured below that was hammered on an 8" by 12" copper plate, written in Jawi. curiously, the language used is similar to a mixture of sanskrit, old javanese, old malay, and old tagalog. as a matter of fact, it mentioned a few towns that still exist to this day: Tundun (Tondo), Pailah (Paila), Puliran (Pulilan), and Binwangan, which are in Luzon, the town of Dewata in Mindanao which is not far from where those gold dagger handles pictured above were excavated, and Medang, which is possibly the town of Medan in Sumatra. the date mentioned in that document was later translated to april, 21, 900 A.D. this particular document was found in manila around 1989.

i thought i'd add this in the context of the artifacts posted above...

Quote:

he added that blacksmiths then were itinerant, and thus all the more that we should see similarity in designs

this is very interesting! seems as if the moro pandays of later years were still practicing this, hence we see a lot of cross-tribal blades...

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 04:54 AM

Miguel Diaz, I cannot disagree with anything you have presented. I am of the opinion that the blade under discussion here is a Philippine blade.

However, is it a keris (or kris, or creese, or cris, or crist, or dhuwung or any of the other variations) as we would recognise a keris today?

Over the years there has been much discussion about exactly how we identify a keris.

Speaking only for myself, and setting to one side the obvious aberrations, I believe that for a blade to be considered a keris it must have gandhik and gonjo as a bare minimum.

For me, the blade under discussion is not a keris.

It has certain keris-like features, which could indicate some early experimentation with the keris form, but it lacks the essential features that would give it the spiritual characteristics of a keris, and since the keris is a spiritual object, these features are essential in any keris, especially an early one.

As far as I am concerned, this blade you have shown us is indisputably of Philippine origin.

21st May 2011, 02:50 PM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	The other Filipino prehispanic blades have a more regular taper from the guard, to the point. The pic of the lone dagger is from 'nacho'. Attached Images

22nd May 2011, 01:41 PM	#2
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	From Laos/Cambodia/Thailand, we also see a similar blade profile. The pic below (and the ones to follow) are from the book, Images of the Gods: Khmer Mythology in Cambodia, Laos & Thailand. Attached Images

22nd May 2011, 01:53 PM	#3
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	To put the above blade in context, the other blade types that can be seen in those ancient [Thai/Laotian/Cambodian] temples are below. The longer blades, as well as the captions of the daggers shown, can be found in this album. Attached Images

24th May 2011, 04:19 PM	#4
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Dr. Dizon was kind enough to see me the other day. Here's some of the things he mentioned to me: [1] on the bent tip of the Visayan kris -- he said that it is a sign that the blade owner willed when he was alive that the blade will be buried with him; bending the tip was a gesture that the blade is not to be used anymore -- in effect, this is another sign to look for when one is assessing the authenticity of an alleged excavated blade; he said that this practice was also done in other regions [given the practice of ancestral worship then, these desires of the old folks were surely followed to the letter; the success of harvests and business enterprises were believed then to be heavily dependent upon the benevolent intervention of the departed forefathers] [2] the similarity of the Visayan kris with old Javanese kerises, etc., is not surprising because there were really no borders then amongst what is now Phils., Indo., & Malaysia [3] he added that blacksmiths then were itinerant, and thus all the more that we should see similarity in designs [4] as far as artifacts found in ship wrecks in the country are concerned, he said he has never seen a bladed weapon [except for the katanas in the San Diego wreck, 1600, near Batangas] -- his conclusion is that the bladed weapons of ancient Phils. were not imported; we made our own [5] he has also never seen blade artifacts in the country that are wavy -- all are straight [thus we can tentatively conclude here that the wavy/naga blade is a relatively recent concept] [6] rather than mining iron ore and then smelting them, it's always easier to recycle old iron or steel as less effort is required [7] also, as steel gets recycled (and heated and pounded once more to get the slag [impurities] out), all the more that the quality of the steel gets better [8] thus it was quite popular in the olden days to use "drift iron", i.e., metal coming from various sources and then recycled.

24th May 2011, 06:20 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Again thanks Miguel for all the research. It seems to me that this dating from 10th-15th century is a bit wide. Have they been unable to refine this dating a bit given the artifacts found. I personally would find 10th C date unlikely, but could see 15th C date.

25th May 2011, 04:54 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Miguel Diaz, I cannot disagree with anything you have presented. I am of the opinion that the blade under discussion here is a Philippine blade. However, is it a keris (or kris, or creese, or cris, or crist, or dhuwung or any of the other variations) as we would recognise a keris today? Over the years there has been much discussion about exactly how we identify a keris. Speaking only for myself, and setting to one side the obvious aberrations, I believe that for a blade to be considered a keris it must have gandhik and gonjo as a bare minimum. For me, the blade under discussion is not a keris. It has certain keris-like features, which could indicate some early experimentation with the keris form, but it lacks the essential features that would give it the spiritual characteristics of a keris, and since the keris is a spiritual object, these features are essential in any keris, especially an early one. As far as I am concerned, this blade you have shown us is indisputably of Philippine origin.