Kaskara for comment

Iain · 29th April 2011, 01:09 AM

I think Ed gave a pretty good stab at this. I'll add a few points.

The relative political stability of Ethiopia combined with a habit of outsourcing blade manufacture in the (caveat) 19th century, means that for a certain period the shifting sands, shift, well a bit less. Otherwise you can find kaskara even crossing over, include, if memory serves correct in church iconography/wall painting.

Kaskara use extended into Bornu, so it certainly went west, Ethiopian weaponry I think stayed a bit more bottled up, partly due to cultural/religious differences and partly just due to geographical factors. Natural barriers and the type of trade going through Ethiopia from the Sahel.

The date of popular kaskara use I also have no idea about, but I have often wondered if the Mahdist period ignited some interest in the type due to association with the sword of Mohammed and religious connections with swords in Islam.

As Ed noted Kassala was relatively late to the party in terms of being an arms center. Omdurman was noted for mail product and other military gear during the Mahdi years, however earlier than that less is known at least to me, about Sudan specifically.

What I do have to go on are a few period sources like Barth reporting on the Kano re-export business. I still have a problem understanding why less of the same trade blades in kaskara turn up in takouba and also why kaskara hilts don't seem to be know at all in Hausa areas. Sometimes you get cross over - I'm attaching a Peter Kull bladed takouba with re profiled tip that sold in Germany a little while back (unfortunately not to me). THis is the exact same blade as found in kaskara, just profiled as a takouba. However these are few and far between in my experience. However the vast majority of takouba and kaskara blades don't really match up, particularly the wide fullered kaskara - making me question if the form was carried into Sudan from the west. I would still subscribe to the Mamluk influence theory and export of weaponry from Cairo. Even maille from Cairo was showing up in Egypt so any weapons trade certainly went both ways.

In short, you don't really find a spot where the sands don't shift a bit in the Sahel. You have two wildly different hilt types in the kaskara and takouba, that seem to have shared some common sources for blades, you have long and well used trade routes to propagate forms outside of their source zones and you have similar styles of warfare and large empires/kingdoms bumping into each other. In short it's a highly enjoyable mess.

Best,
Iain

Mefidk · 29th April 2011, 05:52 PM

Guys, thats really fantastic information. Thank you. I'm not more confused, but I guess I'm beginning to see just how much there is to know that I don't know

...but that's one of the great attractions of these weapons - lots to find out and no easy way to do it

stephen wood · 29th April 2011, 06:57 PM

...a very interesting discussion.

One key difference between the kaskara and the takouba is the tang:

Kaskaras have a shorter, blunt tang which has a hole for an iron peg to hold the hilt assembly together. Like a mamluk sword.

Takoubas have a longer tang which is peened at the pommel. Like a European sword.

While I was researching my talk on the Kaskara for the Arms and Armour Society I found that it had been around for a long time: this 1821 image of a King of Sennar is the earliest depiction of which I am aware, although I know of earlier descriptions.

Iain · 29th April 2011, 07:14 PM

Great illustration Stephen and nice to have a date attached as well. Very much appreciated that you posted it.

The hilting is one of the main aspects I was getting at which differentiate the two types. As Ed was noting kaskara mounting could took place in a rough form for later finishing. That's simply not possible with takouba. The use of substantial, balance oriented pommels is another aspect where the two types are very different. As you note the kaskara method seems directly related to Mamluk weaponry. So, as much as blade sources may overlap the relationship between the two weapons seems to start and end with blades and that's about all they have in common.

By the way I sent you a PM, not sure if you go it as I hadn't heard back yet.

29th April 2011, 01:09 AM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	I think Ed gave a pretty good stab at this. I'll add a few points. The relative political stability of Ethiopia combined with a habit of outsourcing blade manufacture in the (caveat) 19th century, means that for a certain period the shifting sands, shift, well a bit less. Otherwise you can find kaskara even crossing over, include, if memory serves correct in church iconography/wall painting. Kaskara use extended into Bornu, so it certainly went west, Ethiopian weaponry I think stayed a bit more bottled up, partly due to cultural/religious differences and partly just due to geographical factors. Natural barriers and the type of trade going through Ethiopia from the Sahel. The date of popular kaskara use I also have no idea about, but I have often wondered if the Mahdist period ignited some interest in the type due to association with the sword of Mohammed and religious connections with swords in Islam. As Ed noted Kassala was relatively late to the party in terms of being an arms center. Omdurman was noted for mail product and other military gear during the Mahdi years, however earlier than that less is known at least to me, about Sudan specifically. What I do have to go on are a few period sources like Barth reporting on the Kano re-export business. I still have a problem understanding why less of the same trade blades in kaskara turn up in takouba and also why kaskara hilts don't seem to be know at all in Hausa areas. Sometimes you get cross over - I'm attaching a Peter Kull bladed takouba with re profiled tip that sold in Germany a little while back (unfortunately not to me). THis is the exact same blade as found in kaskara, just profiled as a takouba. However these are few and far between in my experience. However the vast majority of takouba and kaskara blades don't really match up, particularly the wide fullered kaskara - making me question if the form was carried into Sudan from the west. I would still subscribe to the Mamluk influence theory and export of weaponry from Cairo. Even maille from Cairo was showing up in Egypt so any weapons trade certainly went both ways. In short, you don't really find a spot where the sands don't shift a bit in the Sahel. You have two wildly different hilt types in the kaskara and takouba, that seem to have shared some common sources for blades, you have long and well used trade routes to propagate forms outside of their source zones and you have similar styles of warfare and large empires/kingdoms bumping into each other. In short it's a highly enjoyable mess. Best, Iain Attached Images

29th April 2011, 06:57 PM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...a very interesting discussion. One key difference between the kaskara and the takouba is the tang: Kaskaras have a shorter, blunt tang which has a hole for an iron peg to hold the hilt assembly together. Like a mamluk sword. Takoubas have a longer tang which is peened at the pommel. Like a European sword. While I was researching my talk on the Kaskara for the Arms and Armour Society I found that it had been around for a long time: this 1821 image of a King of Sennar is the earliest depiction of which I am aware, although I know of earlier descriptions. Attached Images

29th April 2011, 05:52 PM	#2
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Guys, thats really fantastic information. Thank you. I'm not more confused, but I guess I'm beginning to see just how much there is to know that I don't know ...but that's one of the great attractions of these weapons - lots to find out and no easy way to do it

29th April 2011, 07:14 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Great illustration Stephen and nice to have a date attached as well. Very much appreciated that you posted it. The hilting is one of the main aspects I was getting at which differentiate the two types. As Ed was noting kaskara mounting could took place in a rough form for later finishing. That's simply not possible with takouba. The use of substantial, balance oriented pommels is another aspect where the two types are very different. As you note the kaskara method seems directly related to Mamluk weaponry. So, as much as blade sources may overlap the relationship between the two weapons seems to start and end with blades and that's about all they have in common. By the way I sent you a PM, not sure if you go it as I hadn't heard back yet.