Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?

Sajen · 14th January 2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Detlef,

it was certainly not mentioned as "attack" so sorry, if it felt like that.
what I only "attacked" was the statement "you can't clean real patina" but this is already answered by David.

indeed I didn't looked on the other thread as I not often visit the keris threads but was "alarmed" by the subject of this thread "

Arjan,

of course i have felt under attack when you have given me the advice that i have to look, than think, and so on. And special with the background that i have had the feeling that you byself haven't read all carefully and you don't know which keris is the one about we write here.

I am not resentful and naturally take your "Sorry".

Keep in mind that I have a great understanding of the respect you have for patina and that i have had many times an internal battle in my mind to "clean" a sarung of a keris (look post #44 in the other thread) and sometimes i have decided to keep the patination (look the picture) but in case of the keris in question i am sure that it only can look better when the sarung is cleaned. And when Dave decide to clean it and will post pictures of the result i am sure that you will agree.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 15th January 2011, 03:01 AM

This is an opinion, and it is not to be construed as advice.

The question originally put in this thread incorporated the concept of "value".

Value in this context I interpret as meaning:-

" can I get more for this thing if I clean it, or if I don't clean it, and if I clean it, how much should I clean it to maximise value to a potential buyer?"

The answer to these questions lays in the nature of the market into which the object will be sold, and to a finer degree, the needs of the identified buyers.

If the market prefers the idea of antiquity and associates that with a modicum of dirt and obvious age, then that is what the canny seller will provide, be it genuine or not.

If the market prefers that a traditional object should be presented in as close a form to possible as that which is regarded as correct in the society from which the object originates, then the canny seller will do his best to provide that societally correct presentation.

However, if we adopt the point of view of a collector, or student, of the same object, then my personal feeling is that whatever makes the individual happy is correct.

Forget market value and simply do what makes you feel good.

If that means leaving as found, leave it as found.

If it means a total restoration, do that, with the caution that you find out how to do this properly before you pick up the angle grinder.

If it means adopting some approach that falls between these two extremes, that's what you do. When all is said and done, only one person needs to live with the object:- you.

dave78 · 15th January 2011, 11:35 AM

There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested:

David · 17th January 2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave78

There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested:

I don't think that the opinions here are as diverse as they might appear. No one would suggest that you aggressively refinish this keris. There are degrees of cleaning. IMO removing dirt and oiling the wood of your sheath and hilt is not going to make your keris look any less aged. Likewise removing dirt and rust from your blade and oiling it will not make it look less old, just less rusty. And active rust is a destructive force and will over time eat into the metal of your blade cause irreparable damage to the blade.
All this work can easily be done without any loss to patina.

A. G. Maisey · 17th January 2011, 02:29 AM

David, as I said at the beginning of my post, I was giving an opinion, not providing advice.

If I were to provide advice, it would be more or less in line with the advice that has already been given:-

glue the scabbard together, use a good furniture oil to to clean it, I prefer Sheraton, then a good furniture wax, clean the hilt the same way, lightly clean the pendongkok, do a complete clean and stain of the blade.

If it were mine, that's what I'd do with it, and for a segment of the keris market this would also maximise value.

However, the keris market has a number of segments, and they do not all have the same requirements.

Similarly not all people who have keris in their possession have the same tastes, nor the same level of knowledge.

The objective of my initial post was to encourage dave78 to slow down, think about what had already been said, and decide if he wants to learn a little more about keris or if he simply wants to preserve a little bit of family memorabilia.

David · 17th January 2011, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The objective of my initial post was to encourage dave78 to slow down, think about what had already been said, and decide if he wants to learn a little more about keris or if he simply wants to preserve a little bit of family memorabilia.

Well exactly Alan. I have already acknowledged that there are different markets. That is why i have only suggested to Dave that he carefully clean his keris and rid it of active rust. I have a hard time seeing how those actions would have an adverse effect on any market.
I have not recommended staining or even re-gluing the sheath, two things that i would probably do with this keris were it in my hands.

A. G. Maisey · 18th January 2011, 01:52 AM

David, when I mentioned market segments, I was thinking in terms of all those people who do buy keris, not necessarily keris collectors.

With keris collectors, and simply weapons collectors who buy the occasional keris, there is mostly an acceptance that some maintenance work on things is not only acceptable, but necessary. Some of these people may prefer complete restorations, others may want graduations of that, still others will only touch a piece if it has been removed from place of origin a long time ago and recently discovered in the bottom of granddad's sea chest.

However, when we consider the preferences of tribal art collectors, most especially the really hard core of this segment, the demand for absolutely no interference with "as found" condition can go to extreme lengths.

David · 15th January 2011, 02:45 PM

This is, of course, very good advice Alan, some i would support. Ultimately it is always the owner who must make themselves happy.
However, if we get back to the specific question that Dave posted, that would be "Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?" I do understand your reference to different markets quite well, but i would have to say that from what i have understood from the attitudes of the keris community in general (if we can ever generalize such a thing) is that as long as you don't also clean away patina or damage or over clean the blade in the process the answer is no, it will not hurt the value. And i believe whole-heartedly that a careful and well thought out cleaning does not hurt patina, but can in fact enhance it, so i find this part of Dave's question less subjective than the part about value. Frankly i'm not sure what the antique community at large thinks of this or, for that matter, what the appraisers at the Antiques Road Show would say about it all, but for me personally that is not the market that matters much in making these decisions.
Ultimate Dave is, of course, welcome to leave his keris "as is", but he did come to us and ask our opinions and he has most certainly received some.

15th January 2011, 11:35 AM	#3
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested: Attached Images

15th January 2011, 03:01 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	This is an opinion, and it is not to be construed as advice. The question originally put in this thread incorporated the concept of "value". Value in this context I interpret as meaning:- " can I get more for this thing if I clean it, or if I don't clean it, and if I clean it, how much should I clean it to maximise value to a potential buyer?" The answer to these questions lays in the nature of the market into which the object will be sold, and to a finer degree, the needs of the identified buyers. If the market prefers the idea of antiquity and associates that with a modicum of dirt and obvious age, then that is what the canny seller will provide, be it genuine or not. If the market prefers that a traditional object should be presented in as close a form to possible as that which is regarded as correct in the society from which the object originates, then the canny seller will do his best to provide that societally correct presentation. However, if we adopt the point of view of a collector, or student, of the same object, then my personal feeling is that whatever makes the individual happy is correct. Forget market value and simply do what makes you feel good. If that means leaving as found, leave it as found. If it means a total restoration, do that, with the caution that you find out how to do this properly before you pick up the angle grinder. If it means adopting some approach that falls between these two extremes, that's what you do. When all is said and done, only one person needs to live with the object:- you.

17th January 2011, 02:29 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	David, as I said at the beginning of my post, I was giving an opinion, not providing advice. If I were to provide advice, it would be more or less in line with the advice that has already been given:- glue the scabbard together, use a good furniture oil to to clean it, I prefer Sheraton, then a good furniture wax, clean the hilt the same way, lightly clean the pendongkok, do a complete clean and stain of the blade. If it were mine, that's what I'd do with it, and for a segment of the keris market this would also maximise value. However, the keris market has a number of segments, and they do not all have the same requirements. Similarly not all people who have keris in their possession have the same tastes, nor the same level of knowledge. The objective of my initial post was to encourage dave78 to slow down, think about what had already been said, and decide if he wants to learn a little more about keris or if he simply wants to preserve a little bit of family memorabilia.

18th January 2011, 01:52 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	David, when I mentioned market segments, I was thinking in terms of all those people who do buy keris, not necessarily keris collectors. With keris collectors, and simply weapons collectors who buy the occasional keris, there is mostly an acceptance that some maintenance work on things is not only acceptable, but necessary. Some of these people may prefer complete restorations, others may want graduations of that, still others will only touch a piece if it has been removed from place of origin a long time ago and recently discovered in the bottom of granddad's sea chest. However, when we consider the preferences of tribal art collectors, most especially the really hard core of this segment, the demand for absolutely no interference with "as found" condition can go to extreme lengths.

15th January 2011, 02:45 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	This is, of course, very good advice Alan, some i would support. Ultimately it is always the owner who must make themselves happy. However, if we get back to the specific question that Dave posted, that would be "Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?" I do understand your reference to different markets quite well, but i would have to say that from what i have understood from the attitudes of the keris community in general (if we can ever generalize such a thing) is that as long as you don't also clean away patina or damage or over clean the blade in the process the answer is no, it will not hurt the value. And i believe whole-heartedly that a careful and well thought out cleaning does not hurt patina, but can in fact enhance it, so i find this part of Dave's question less subjective than the part about value. Frankly i'm not sure what the antique community at large thinks of this or, for that matter, what the appraisers at the Antiques Road Show would say about it all, but for me personally that is not the market that matters much in making these decisions. Ultimate Dave is, of course, welcome to leave his keris "as is", but he did come to us and ask our opinions and he has most certainly received some.