Eastern Arms in Armeria Reale di Torino

Mark · 22nd June 2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

B.I.

Good idea. If you scan the Italian text I'm sure someone will be able to translate it. Put it up and see who steps forward.

Ian.

I'll get right on that. I remember visiting the Armoria Reale has a youngster, but it was before my all-consuming passion for swords, and dha in particular, developed, so I don't remember much except for the katana. I have wanted to get back there for several years, and often wondered what they had in the way of dha. Maybe next spring. I used to live over the hills east of Torino, in a little town called Pecetto.

BTW, the Thai saber is a "krabi," and is more likely inspired by a European saber that the Vietnamese, IMO. I think they both developed more-or-less contemporaneously.

Mark · 18th August 2005, 04:39 PM

I just stumbled over this again. I am normally not this slow when I say I'll "get right on" something. Here is the translation of the Italian text that goes with the krabi (saber). The question marks in parenthases are original; I have added a few comments in brackets.

G.386
Siam, circa 1897
Saber presented by Rama v, king of Siam, to Umberto I, king of Italy

Blade fairly narrow, slightly curved, evenly tapered, pointed, single-edged, with wedge cross-section, pierced along the center line up to the tip to contain a sinuous motif, along which runs a foliar [or vegetal] decoration in gold koftgari; at the forte there is another motif in gold koftgari, enclosed in a border of unusual form made up of a rectangle and a triangle. Fittings and scabbard in copper completely covered by champleve’ [?] enamal of transparent green, blue and red, and opaque white, with septa [dividers] of gold koftgari and interspersed with small diamonds, emeralds and some irregularly cut rubies (some broken originally) in gold settings. The very long grip has at the base a bell-shaped profile marked with descending leaves and set off by a moulding, and is tapered and somewhat curved, covered with a scale motif in enamel, each scale containing a gem as already described, and terminating with three crested Naga heads for a pommel, held in place by a heavy screw. A very wide guard, pierced and enameled with spear-shaped leaves and clusters. On the scabbard, worked in the same manner, is shown a tangle of leaves and small flowers, among which is seen a shell, an urn and the crest of Siam (in red, with the three-headed white elephant) flanked by two seven-tiered parasols and surmounted by the radiant Siamese crown; on the reverse are shown a kind of labyrinth overlaid with a crown (?), a saddled buffalo, a commander’s baton (?) and a flaming wheel; the very small tip [i.e., of the chape] is missing.

Measurements: weapon: 822 x 120 mm; 760 g; blade 615 X 26 mm; scabbard 665 x 37 mm, 570 g

LETTERS [notes?] OF DONDI CARTESEGNA 1982, no. 377; DONDI 1995, cover table and passim [throughout]

C.f.: FOSSATI DONDI 1981, no. 1174; DONDI 1998

Dha, the traditional swords of the entire indochinese area (c.f. file cards G.356 and T.40), have very long handles but almost never possess hilt or guard. The form of the weapon in question shows, however, the introduction of Western fashions into those countries (an analogous phenomenon is found elsewhere in the same period, in particular in Japan), with the adoption of the general model of the saber, a military weapon which also came to embody, beginning in the 19th century, all that was Western, however interpreted according to local canons, with a very long grip with enlarged furniture [lit. “point of attachment” or “junction,” I am assuming reference to the knuckle-guard] which, to the Western eye, causes a loss of proportion between the parts. The blade has a form that cannot be said to be either Western or Eastern, but the decoration of the same (minus the piercing) applies classic techniques and themes: the koftgari, even if not highly refined, is of ancient custom, while the vegetal motif with small leaves is very common in the decoration of iron, whether simply engraved, or whether damascened in silver or (infrequently) in gold; equally typical is the motif within a trapezoidal edging at the forte. Unusual, possibly unique, is the use of enamel, while the themes shown are in classical, such as the mythical Naga serpent, and in part taken from Western fashion, such as the state crest. It is a very luxurious weapon, and it should be considered that this would be the style adopted by Siam in the late 19th century for presentation weapons, at least with respect to Westerner personages. The Siamese Museum of Cagliari possesses a weapon (acc. no. 1174) which is less rich, but of the same style.
Rama V (Chulalongkorn) reigned from 1868 to 1910 and, following the path laid out by his father, Rama IV (Mongkut), increased the opening and modernization of the country, instituting reforms and entering into further treaties with a number of states. Siam owes it to these two sovereign that it did not become, as other states around it, a Western colony. To solidify ties with Italy, in 1881 Tomaso di Savoia, Duke of Genoa arrived for a [state] visit, which was magnificently received (a spear with head decorated with gold and a staff of silver, gifts on that occasion, are preserved in the castle of Aglie, near Turin, a holding of the Dukes of Genoa). Subsequently, the Italian presence in Siam became significant [lit. “numerous and important”]. Italian architects, painters and sculptors (no few from Turin) were active in Bangkok, interpreting the spirit of that country with great skill and sensibility, and to them are owed many buildings and other works which are still admired (see Ferri de Lazaro e Piazzardi, Italians in the Siamese Court, TCI, 1997). Of particular importance, thereafter, was the presence of Major Gerolamo Emilio Gerini (1860-1913), instructor of the Royal Guard and creator of the Military School [academy], author of military manuals in Siamese, and most of all tireless student and prolific writer of works on the history and traditions of the country, greatly admired [esteemed] by the King, who entrusted to him numerous important tasks [can also mean “commissions,” “charges,” “assignments” or “missions”].

Mark · 18th August 2005, 05:01 PM

Brian, could you be convinced to part with a copy of that catalogue? I'll translate it for you if you do ...

It is great because it not only describes the sword, but gives the provenance and historical context as well. Excellent material.

B.I · 18th August 2005, 05:20 PM

hi mark,
i spent the day with giorgio, and found him a fascinating character. he was a full time researcher, and once he undertook a 'subject' he just ploughed into it. i dont know how far his knowledge is on eastern arms, as his publications cover a much wider scope. he does have a pssion for it though, and i know he would have at least used every available resource at torino.
i have a 'hard copy' of his book, but he kindly gave me the text (an early version, pre-edited) so i can attempt to translate chunks.
i would rather not put it directly on-line, as he was a little embarrassed about showing his corrected mistakes, but i will happily send it to you if you pm me your email address, and bear with me whilst i try and find it on my system. you can translate the necessary bits and do with as you wish. there is one item on there i would love translated for my own study, at some point in my lifetime if you have time. no hurry though.

Battara · 19th August 2005, 05:00 AM

Thanks BI and athe rest for the nice pics. Helps in my research and understanding when I do restorations for people.

One the other side of the coin, it depresses me a little when I see these and know that to acquire similar quality toys, no one takes my $5 offer seriously.

Nathaniel · 24th August 2014, 05:08 PM

Hello all,

Just wanted to open and old thread. I'm wondering which catalog it is that B.I was mentioning? these images came from. I know it was in the draft versions when he first posted. Does anyone have a copy?

When I was searching I found these two books:

Nathaniel · 24th August 2014, 05:11 PM

and this one...published in 2005

Gavin Nugent · 25th August 2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Hello all,

Just wanted to open and old thread. I'm wondering which catalog it is that B.I was mentioning? these images came from. I know it was in the draft versions when he first posted. Does anyone have a copy?

When I was searching I found these two books:

I have a copy Nathaniel, it is the first title you picture.

24th August 2014, 05:08 PM	#6
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Hello all, Just wanted to open and old thread. I'm wondering which catalog it is that B.I was mentioning? these images came from. I know it was in the draft versions when he first posted. Does anyone have a copy? When I was searching I found these two books: Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 25th August 2014 at 04:32 AM.

24th August 2014, 05:11 PM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	and this one...published in 2005 Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 25th August 2014 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Read the rules on posting links to items that are for sale.

18th August 2005, 04:39 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I just stumbled over this again. I am normally not this slow when I say I'll "get right on" something. Here is the translation of the Italian text that goes with the krabi (saber). The question marks in parenthases are original; I have added a few comments in brackets. G.386 Siam, circa 1897 Saber presented by Rama v, king of Siam, to Umberto I, king of Italy Blade fairly narrow, slightly curved, evenly tapered, pointed, single-edged, with wedge cross-section, pierced along the center line up to the tip to contain a sinuous motif, along which runs a foliar [or vegetal] decoration in gold koftgari; at the forte there is another motif in gold koftgari, enclosed in a border of unusual form made up of a rectangle and a triangle. Fittings and scabbard in copper completely covered by champleve’ [?] enamal of transparent green, blue and red, and opaque white, with septa [dividers] of gold koftgari and interspersed with small diamonds, emeralds and some irregularly cut rubies (some broken originally) in gold settings. The very long grip has at the base a bell-shaped profile marked with descending leaves and set off by a moulding, and is tapered and somewhat curved, covered with a scale motif in enamel, each scale containing a gem as already described, and terminating with three crested Naga heads for a pommel, held in place by a heavy screw. A very wide guard, pierced and enameled with spear-shaped leaves and clusters. On the scabbard, worked in the same manner, is shown a tangle of leaves and small flowers, among which is seen a shell, an urn and the crest of Siam (in red, with the three-headed white elephant) flanked by two seven-tiered parasols and surmounted by the radiant Siamese crown; on the reverse are shown a kind of labyrinth overlaid with a crown (?), a saddled buffalo, a commander’s baton (?) and a flaming wheel; the very small tip [i.e., of the chape] is missing. Measurements: weapon: 822 x 120 mm; 760 g; blade 615 X 26 mm; scabbard 665 x 37 mm, 570 g LETTERS [notes?] OF DONDI CARTESEGNA 1982, no. 377; DONDI 1995, cover table and passim [throughout] C.f.: FOSSATI DONDI 1981, no. 1174; DONDI 1998 Dha, the traditional swords of the entire indochinese area (c.f. file cards G.356 and T.40), have very long handles but almost never possess hilt or guard. The form of the weapon in question shows, however, the introduction of Western fashions into those countries (an analogous phenomenon is found elsewhere in the same period, in particular in Japan), with the adoption of the general model of the saber, a military weapon which also came to embody, beginning in the 19th century, all that was Western, however interpreted according to local canons, with a very long grip with enlarged furniture [lit. “point of attachment” or “junction,” I am assuming reference to the knuckle-guard] which, to the Western eye, causes a loss of proportion between the parts. The blade has a form that cannot be said to be either Western or Eastern, but the decoration of the same (minus the piercing) applies classic techniques and themes: the koftgari, even if not highly refined, is of ancient custom, while the vegetal motif with small leaves is very common in the decoration of iron, whether simply engraved, or whether damascened in silver or (infrequently) in gold; equally typical is the motif within a trapezoidal edging at the forte. Unusual, possibly unique, is the use of enamel, while the themes shown are in classical, such as the mythical Naga serpent, and in part taken from Western fashion, such as the state crest. It is a very luxurious weapon, and it should be considered that this would be the style adopted by Siam in the late 19th century for presentation weapons, at least with respect to Westerner personages. The Siamese Museum of Cagliari possesses a weapon (acc. no. 1174) which is less rich, but of the same style. Rama V (Chulalongkorn) reigned from 1868 to 1910 and, following the path laid out by his father, Rama IV (Mongkut), increased the opening and modernization of the country, instituting reforms and entering into further treaties with a number of states. Siam owes it to these two sovereign that it did not become, as other states around it, a Western colony. To solidify ties with Italy, in 1881 Tomaso di Savoia, Duke of Genoa arrived for a [state] visit, which was magnificently received (a spear with head decorated with gold and a staff of silver, gifts on that occasion, are preserved in the castle of Aglie, near Turin, a holding of the Dukes of Genoa). Subsequently, the Italian presence in Siam became significant [lit. “numerous and important”]. Italian architects, painters and sculptors (no few from Turin) were active in Bangkok, interpreting the spirit of that country with great skill and sensibility, and to them are owed many buildings and other works which are still admired (see Ferri de Lazaro e Piazzardi, Italians in the Siamese Court, TCI, 1997). Of particular importance, thereafter, was the presence of Major Gerolamo Emilio Gerini (1860-1913), instructor of the Royal Guard and creator of the Military School [academy], author of military manuals in Siamese, and most of all tireless student and prolific writer of works on the history and traditions of the country, greatly admired [esteemed] by the King, who entrusted to him numerous important tasks [can also mean “commissions,” “charges,” “assignments” or “missions”].

18th August 2005, 05:01 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Brian, could you be convinced to part with a copy of that catalogue? I'll translate it for you if you do ... It is great because it not only describes the sword, but gives the provenance and historical context as well. Excellent material.

18th August 2005, 05:20 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, i spent the day with giorgio, and found him a fascinating character. he was a full time researcher, and once he undertook a 'subject' he just ploughed into it. i dont know how far his knowledge is on eastern arms, as his publications cover a much wider scope. he does have a pssion for it though, and i know he would have at least used every available resource at torino. i have a 'hard copy' of his book, but he kindly gave me the text (an early version, pre-edited) so i can attempt to translate chunks. i would rather not put it directly on-line, as he was a little embarrassed about showing his corrected mistakes, but i will happily send it to you if you pm me your email address, and bear with me whilst i try and find it on my system. you can translate the necessary bits and do with as you wish. there is one item on there i would love translated for my own study, at some point in my lifetime if you have time. no hurry though.

19th August 2005, 05:00 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thanks BI and athe rest for the nice pics. Helps in my research and understanding when I do restorations for people. One the other side of the coin, it depresses me a little when I see these and know that to acquire similar quality toys, no one takes my $5 offer seriously.