ask for more details

[Jean]

Hello Chregu,
I would basically agree with Chandra, the sheath and hilt look Minang to me (the front part of the sampir is damaged) and the blade rather looks from Cirebon (from the shape and deep tikel alis) or may be Madura but it is old.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

I have seen geraham in a hilt that came into Australia pre-WWI.

Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo has a weapon with a geraham hilt that has been there since the mid-1970's and was already old then. (pictured).

I have several keris from South Sumatera that use this style of pendongkok.

I have seen a blades of this style in South Sumatera wrongkos.

This wrongko appears to be South Sumatera, but also appears to have been damaged.

I'd be inclined to vote for South Sumatera, Palembang-Lampung general area, but possibly with a bit of mating along the way.

[Jean]

Hello Chregu,
Attached are pictures of:
. A Cirebon kris with a similar blade as yours but may be longer (41cm without peksi)
. A Minang kris with a similar pendongkok as yours
. A Palembang kris with a fossil molar hilt in Jawa demam style similar to yours but smaller and in a different style.
Best regards
Jean

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...but possibly with a bit of mating along the way.

That's a good way to put it, Alan. I agree some mating has occured along the way. The hilt, blade and sheath could have been from different parentages.

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have seen geraham in a hilt that came into Australia pre-WWI.

Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo has a weapon with a geraham hilt that has been there since the mid-1970's and was already old then. (pictured).

Sure, this kind of material can be as old as pre-WWI or earlier whenever new specimen with trusted dating are into knowledge. In my earlier post I should have said traditionally/historically preferred material? Something like I never heard of iconic antique pieces made of this. If somebody know there are any out there, please enlighten me. In general I'm not ready about dating but imagining should I have ivory or geraham as on option, I would choose ivory. The modern collection habit did not count as collectors generally tend to fill whatever is missing from his collection. But then again, culture is not a static set of value.

Anyway, by nature I think it is not a preferred material by true artisan who are looking into detail-I don't know about modern tool, but haven't seen anything which is elaborately carved yet. And the psychedelic color effect might be too dominant for some cultures I guess-when viewed from traditional point of view. But economy always need to create new product called substitution (of exotic material) which can generate the same or better profit-I hope I don't offended anyone by mentioning this.

Nevertheless, I like how it ranges from soft yellow to dark orange and adore it as luxury, something once I want to have but couldn't afford

[A. G. Maisey]

I've owned a number of hilts and wrongkos from geraham, and frankly I do not like it.

Some has been fossilised material, some has been from fresh elephant teeth.

It is a swine of a material to work, and I cannot imagine how the old ones I've seen were worked.

I think it is relatively certain that we will not find hilts from geraham that date back too far into the 19th century. I have seen more geraham in hilts and wrongkos during the last ten years than I saw in the previous 40 years.

However, all that said, it can look absolutely fantastic in a photo or on display, and it is very popular with collectors.

As Tunggulametung says, there is no comparison between geraham and ivory from the point of view of tradition, or just plain, pure class. Ivory carves magnificently, geraham will not support fine carving and is inclined to chip very easily.

[Sajen]

When I look to Chregu's hilt I think that it isn't new carved and have a good age and have a other colour like the many new/recent geraham hilts and wrongkos and in my opinion it's possible that this ensemble is long together like this.
In this matter I want remember to my own Sumatra keris which I have shown at this place some time ago. I think that the hilt of my keris is a good sample of a well crafted geraham hilt. And I believe that my example also have a age pre WWI.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8761

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

I was told by an experienced Javanese seller that fossil or old geraham has a pale yellowish colour (like Chregu's hilt specimen) as compared to fresh elephant molar which has a darker colour with brownish stripes, has anybody heard the same? I have few genuine fossil geraham samples collected in the prehistoric site of Centre Java but I would need to grind them for assessing the colour.
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

No Jean, I have not heard this, but if I recall all the items of geraham that I've had through my hands, I'd say it is probably true.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've owned a number of hilts and wrongkos from geraham, and frankly I do not like it.
Some has been fossilised material, some has been from fresh elephant teeth.
It is a swine of a material to work, and I cannot imagine how the old ones I've seen were worked.

I think it is relatively certain that we will not find hilts from geraham that date back too far into the 19th century. I have seen more geraham in hilts and wrongkos during the last ten years than I saw in the previous 40 years.

I've seen quite a few of these geraham hilts, about half of it, I've seen repairs, nick here and there.. I was told by craftsman the same thing as you've mentioned, a swine of a material to work on (although not specifically that, but along that line). Normally it is carved lightly only to takes up the basic form.. the rest, using the natural structure of geraham, its colour tone, texture of the geraham for decoration.. I do like it, but not on keris.. I rather have it on a hilt stand by itself.. The weight of these heavy material, tend to offset the balance of the ensemble..

When fitted on a keris, and tucked in the waist or waistband, it tends to tip to one side (due to the weight of the hilt).. when held in the hand, the balance tend to be off too, unless it is offset with a heavy keris blade.. imho, not suitable to engage in a fight.. I've seen one being used in a keris fight demo, unfortunately the hilt broke into half.. adding to the list of repaired geraham hilts.. I've see it geraham treated to enhance its colour, although I do not know the process.

Alan, I tend to agree with you that it's a later development.. probably used for ornamental or ritualistic (mystical) purpose, although I'm not prepared to support this opinion..